Conservatives Forum.com The #1 Conservatives Forum on Google.com
Conservative News and Discussion Forum. Home of the Sisterhood Of the Sacred Skillet of Justice.
The NCO Club - Military Forum - Page 2 - Page 3 - CF Forums - Conservative News Source - Newsmax TV
Constitutional Issues - Candidates Action - Economy - Talk Radio Conservative News - Conservatives Directory
Sports - Health - Poetry - Entertainment - Cook, Crafts - Activists Forum - Conservative Activist - CF Chat
Conservative's ForumConservative's Discussion ForumsConstitutional Issues › Individualism & Collectivism at their Extremes...
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2  Send TopicPrint
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Individualism & Collectivism at their Extremes... (Read 4,805 times)
globefront
CF Newbies 3
*
Offline

Conservative's Forum

Posts: 3
Joined: 01/25/11
Individualism & Collectivism at their Extremes...
01/25/11 at 15:37:46
Print Post  
Though both of these basic ideologies fuel the core reasoning of all of today’s political factions no matter what state or nation you are in, what are their real ends and do they work?  What would a society completely consumed by the ideals of individualism be?  Or, what would a culture so entrenched in the philosophy of collectivism yield as its golden standard of governing resemble?  This is assuming of course that both of these hypothetical societies still embrace the notions of human rights and are not aspiring to tyranny…although those are definitely possibilities.

One way to look at the extremes of each having “their way” would be that they would both end up becoming a type of Anarchy if taken to the extreme.  For instance, if the individual is so embraced to the point that there are absolutely no laws to protect others from another individual’s whims of choice, than wouldn’t government of any kind also be abolished since it stands in the way of one’s pursuits?  More so, what if the individual wished to rule others or aspire for tyrannical rule over the entire world?  Wouldn’t a scenario like this also be possible and therefore permissible within the realms of total individualism to the extreme?   This fact that any individual would have to right to do as they please because of their inherent exceptionalism without restriction would inevitably lead to a self-governing, type of Anarchy.  It would be Anarchy because no government would be seen as legitimate since it would infringe on the potential of the individual to do as they please to attain their own ends. 

And as for Collectivism, how would the extreme version of this society become Anarchy?  Likely, it would be a system in where the foolishness of even trying to fund higher taxes to provide all services to all people for the sake of equality would be realized and then superseded by a system of full contribution of labor without compensation by the masses and for the masses.  To participate and receive the benefits of society, one would have to give without money, but then receive society’s benefits.  It would be like a forced volunteerism if that could be intellectualized…Though this sounds very much like an egalitarian society (if it ever did work), the reason why it would be Anarchy is because a legitimate government would no longer exist or be needed.  All that would exist in its place would be a heavy handed, societal and cultural norms that encompasses all reasons to act– which one could argue is actually government in a sense…a topic for another time perhaps…
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Steaker
Leading CF Member
***
Offline

Conservative's Forum

Posts: 126
Joined: 01/02/11
Re: Individualism & Collectivism at their Extremes...
Reply #1 - 01/25/11 at 22:59:21
Print Post  
Doctor Theory ...

It is the application that matters.  And with that what rights are guaranteed by the Constitution.

Around here, Collectivism is just another name for Big Government types who want to control others.  Those with the purest of intentions, but want to Micro-Manage others actions, freedoms, and finances are wrong.  Not just wrong, but evil, un-American, and should be fought against.  

We have in practice on the other side limited Goverment, which is not the worship of the Individual like Ayn Rand stated.  (Many of us loved Ayn's mind, but we want what the founders gave us, even with it's flaws.)  No place has ever practiced no Government, it doesn't work, and actually offers less freedom than limited Government.

Those who have illusions of complete Libertarian practice, the so called Libertarian Purest will never see their Canidates elected.  Limited Government was the working Compromise.  It is a Compromise without Compromising Liberty.  Meaning as long as your Liberty, does not impact anothers Liberty, you are Free.  

This guarantees that you have more Freedom with limited Government than no Government.

The Founders intended that the Congress would constantly argue to keep the Governement small.  And they left the real power in the hands of the people, so that when the Congress started going in the wrong direction the people can rise up and have a tea party.  Or if needed, perserve the Nation through the Blood of Patriots.

Congress is not now or ever been expected to dissolve, yet it's mandate is to be limited and small.  Congress should never expand to the point of what it has now.  Nor should it become null and void.  

The Founders gave us a part time Congress that would fund all National needs of the military, and other limited National needs.

For example:  A budget that was derived from the limited constitutional allowed taxes.  And then debated over how those limited funds would be spent, but not increased.

Nobody here wants modern day Donkey type Government.  Yet, we have the right to demand even more than that.  Or less than that, might be a better way to look at it.  We have the right to Demand that the Elephants who recently chased away the burros from the watering hole, give us much smaller limited Government.

Peak Gov is the Problem
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
sisco55
Ex Member


Re: Individualism & Collectivism at their Extremes...
Reply #2 - 02/01/11 at 16:59:13
Print Post  
Alright. I'm going to try to respond to this. Might be a lot of responding, so bear with me...
Quote:
What would a society completely consumed by the ideals of individualism be?


That's difficult to answer. Where does individualism entail? Assuming an Ayn Randian interpretation, there is still a government, law enforcement and courts. The government is only as big as it needs to be. It needs only to be large enough to protect the rights of individuals, and ensure that the rights of individuals are not encroached upon.

Objectivism (Rands philosophy) is actually very much opposed to Anarchy. I'm not an Objectivist, but I like a lot of the ideas and for the most part, agree with them.
Quote:
And as for Collectivism, how would the extreme version of this society become Anarchy?


This is what I think. Left-anarchy is interesting in that the society it creates (there have been anarchist communes and movements in the past) are remarkably like a government. It's majority rule really. The idea is that the government is replaced by small democratic groups of people, usually workers syndicates or communes. These groups are then supposed to get together and vote on things or discuss what needs to be done.

This sounds fantastic in principle, but on any sort of large scale it doesn't work so well. For it to work without either tyranny of the majority, or it simply turning into a state, the people involved need to be of the same general mindset and ideology. It's a system that, ironically, encourages conformism.

So yeah, that's my post.
Summary:
Individualism (to a point) = good.
Collectivism (as a basis for government) = bad.  
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Penvoice
JuniorMember
**
Offline

Conservative's Forum

Posts: 6
Joined: 11/26/10
Re: Individualism & Collectivism at their Extremes...
Reply #3 - 02/12/11 at 17:54:00
Print Post  
Our representative democracy is, in my view, the best form of governance, primarily at the local level, yet devised.  The Founders knew in their heads and hearts that government closest to the foundational levels of the American People govern best!  This stands in general answer to the valid questions raised in "Individualism & Collectivism at their Extremes...":"What would a society completely consumed by the ideals of individualism be?  Or, what would a culture so entrenched in the philosophy of collectivism yield as its golden standard of governing resemble?...This is assuming of course that both of these hypothetical societies still embrace the notions of human rights and are not aspiring to tyranny…".  In direct answer to those questions, and even allowing for the benevolent  absence of tyranny, the inevitable results would always be some kind of anarchy or fascist-like control.  To protect against these inevitable results, our Founders gave us the best  possible blueprint, via our sacred constitutional means, because they knew that the highest levels of governmental power are better controlled and reined in when the tools of ultimate power are held in the hands of We the People: the various levels of the electorate.  I wager that anyone who reads this probably all ready knows this.  So obviously, it is nothing new to you.

What might be new is a way to enhance and strengthen our beloved America?  Debate is great, is it not?  But what if it carried legal power and weight similar to a court of law and therefore influence the direction general welfare of our society?  Even so, exercising freedom of speech is essential and almost always a good thing as we see here on this fine site.   In the posts I've been reading, most have been written with clarity and passion.  Some good ideas have been posited and that is powerful, but is that powerful enough?  I am not diminishing the value of those words; what I am saying is that with as valuable as those words are, they only reach their potential and promise with action -- proper action through the use of those very words as the tools to get closer to true action which I see as our Founders legacy to us.  As we have seen recently, the Medium is the Message.  But now I see that linking itself to a further truism: the Method is the Message!

If we do not act to strengthen our constitutional foundation, we, and our children's children, will indeed suffer from  "Individualism & Collectivism at their Extremes..." and the degrees of economic, mental and physical enslavement brought on by the authoritarian and techno-control wielded by tyrants!  But I for one take heart because that light at the tunnel is not an oncoming train, but rather the light of promise held by those who actually built the tunnel in the first place -- the great Americans which came before us, and those in the here and now such as we on this very site!

  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Steaker
Leading CF Member
***
Offline

Conservative's Forum

Posts: 126
Joined: 01/02/11
Re: Individualism & Collectivism at their Extremes...
Reply #4 - 02/14/11 at 23:07:07
Print Post  
Great stuff

Now let's all move to Arizona or Alaska where we can still practice these things.  And as the more lib States fall, we will be proven right by example
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Penvoice
JuniorMember
**
Offline

Conservative's Forum

Posts: 6
Joined: 11/26/10
Re: Individualism & Collectivism at their Extremes...
Reply #5 - 02/18/11 at 18:22:38
Print Post  


The will of the majority, the natural law of every society, is the only sure guardian of the rights of man. Perhaps even this may sometimes err; but its errors are honest, solitary and short-lived."
Thomas Jefferson


"Man is a tool-using animal. Without tools he is nothing,
with tools he is all."
Thomas Carlyle



Our representative democracy is, in my view, the best form of governance, primarily at the local level, yet devised.  The Founders knew in their heads and hearts that government closest to the foundational levels of the American People governs best!  This stands in general answer to the valid questions raised in "Individualism & Collectivism at their Extremes...": "What would a society completely consumed by the ideals of individualism be?  Or, what would a culture so entrenched in the philosophy of collectivism yield as its golden standard of governing resemble?...This is assuming of course that both of these hypothetical societies still embrace the notions of human rights and are not aspiring to tyranny…".  In direct answer to those questions, and even allowing for the benevolent  absence of tyranny, the inevitable results would always be some kind of anarchy or fascist-like control.  To protect against these inevitable results, our Founders gave us the best  possible blueprint, via our sacred constitutional means, because they knew that the highest levels of governmental power are better controlled and reined in when the tools of ultimate power are held in the hands of We the People: the various levels of the electorate.  I wager that anyone who reads this probably all ready knows this.  So obviously, it is nothing new to you.

What might be new is a way to enhance and strengthen our beloved America?  Debate is great, is it not? But what if it carried legal power and weight similar to a court of law and therefore influence a strongly positive direction for the general welfare of our society?  Even so, exercising freedom of speech is essential and almost always a good thing as we see here on this fine site.   In the posts I've been reading, most have been written with clarity and passion.  Some good ideas have been posited and that is powerful, but is that powerful enough?  I am not diminishing the value of those words; what I am saying is that with as valuable as those words are, they only reach their potential and promise with action -- proper action through the use of those very words as the tools to get closer to true action which I see as our Founders legacy to us.  As we have seen recently, the Medium is the Message.  But now I see that linking itself to a further truism: the Method is the Message!

If we do not act to strengthen our constitutional foundation, we, and our children's children, will indeed suffer from  "Individualism & Collectivism at their Extremes..." and the degrees of economic, mental and physical enslavement brought on by the authoritarian and techno-control wielded by tyrants!  But I for one take heart because that light at the tunnel is not an oncoming train, but rather the light of promise held by those who actually built the tunnel in the first place -- the great Americans which came before us, and those in the here and now such as we on this very site!

The main question in this post?  What is the method, and what is its message?
« Last Edit: 02/18/11 at 19:25:58 by Penvoice »  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Steaker
Leading CF Member
***
Offline

Conservative's Forum

Posts: 126
Joined: 01/02/11
Re: Individualism & Collectivism at their Extremes...
Reply #6 - 02/20/11 at 14:37:49
Print Post  
Pen Voice ...

Great Post

I would enjoy reading your thoughts on the 2nd Amendment, Property Rights, Gold and Silver, and if you think a serious Depression is heading our way, or if we will avoid that somehow
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Penvoice
JuniorMember
**
Offline

Conservative's Forum

Posts: 6
Joined: 11/26/10
Re: Individualism & Collectivism at their Extremes...
Reply #7 - 02/21/11 at 19:59:04
Print Post  


 "Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force.  Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."


George Washington


Steaker,

The above quote from our first Constitutional President succinctly declares my reason for my staunch support for both parts of the 2nd Amendment.  I say both parts because that's exactly what they are!  As I recall, they are known as independent clauses.  Anyone with a basic understanding of grammar knows that the first longer clause can stand by itself, while the same is true for the shorter equally important second clause.  I think The Founders took this grammatical understanding as a given.  Obviously, those who wish to have statist control continue to argue this point.  The majority of The American People understand it's original intention I believe.  A period or a semi-colon would have ended this debate before it ever started; yet other writings of The Founders' are quite clear on the need for a  militia, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms.  Alas, it currently is what it is.  One thing I'm certain of though, we cannot hope to contain and control that "Fire" without the constitutional power of the 2nd Amendment, right along with the rest of those sacred "tools" -- particularly the 1st Amendment.

In answer to your question regarding my view on property rights, along with gold and silver ownership, I have to say that these are economic freedoms which are as important in many ways as so-called non-economic freedoms.  In other words, my right to own is as sacrosanct as my right for freedom of speech.  Those of us who can afford it are hedging their economic bets with precious metals, and are exercising their constitutionally protected right to "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness".

Without serious financial reform, I do fear that a major depression is headed our way at some point; possibly not that far in the future, either.  How do we avoid such a catastrophe and its terrible consequences?   I believe this and other major areas of concern can only be stopped by the constitutionally guided efforts  of The People and their representatives! Without going on and on about it, as I am want to do, that's what I mean by The Method is The Message: strengthening our constitutional foundation by enhancing and expanding the say of the American People through honest and open debate compelled by the rule of law.  A tall order no doubt, but for now I am gratified by current efforts around our great nation for governmental fiscal responsibility as was made clear by their respective electorates'.  It is one the few areas where state rights can be effectively pursued at this time.

  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Steaker
Leading CF Member
***
Offline

Conservative's Forum

Posts: 126
Joined: 01/02/11
Re: Individualism & Collectivism at their Extremes...
Reply #8 - 02/22/11 at 11:26:24
Print Post  
A lot of info in a few words

You belong on this site

I can't improve on anything you wrote
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Penvoice
JuniorMember
**
Offline

Conservative's Forum

Posts: 6
Joined: 11/26/10
Re: Individualism & Collectivism at their Extremes...
Reply #9 - 02/22/11 at 19:28:35
Print Post  
Thanks for your kind words, Steaker.  I have to say, though, that nothing I write in this vein is truly original.  All credit goes to the Founders; it was their faith controlled intellect which compelled them to act on behalf of present and future Americans.  America is the "shining city on the hill", and this site is one of its brightest beacons.  It's an honor and a privilege to be a member of this site because  I'm sure this forum is built upon and powered by the experience, strength and hope of America's Founders. Certainly, faith without works is dead!  But just as certainly, political works which are not grounded in the faith controlled intelligence of our Founders' legacy is dangerous ignorance or even more dangerous stupidity.  I see this site as a major launching pad, and its solid members as ground control, to further promote and protect America's constitutionally based ideals!  I look forward to productive engagement in the length and breadth of its topics.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Send TopicPrint
 
Conservative's ForumConservative's Discussion ForumsConstitutional Issues › Individualism & Collectivism at their Extremes...


ConservativesForum.com
CF Forums
The NCO Club - Military Forum - Constitutional Issues - Political Polls - Candidates Action - Economy
Conservative News Sources Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Mark Levin forums
Political Activism, Strategy, Blogs - Conservative Sites - Games - Sports - Health - Poetry - Cooking - Library
Gun Rights - Conspiracy Theories - Page 2 - Page 3 - Page 4 - Page 5


Conservatives Directory
conservative sites:
Daily Caller
Newsmax
Drudge Report
Sean Hannity Show
Rush Limbaugh
The American Thinker
Breitbart News
FrontPage Magazine
Right Bias
Rasmussen Reports
David Limbaugh
American Conservative Union
Accuracy in Media
News Busters
Newt Gingrich
Chicks on the Right
Mark Levin Show
Tea Party Patriots
Phyllis Schlafly Report
Conservative News
TruthUSA
Michelle Malkin
Right Wing News
Accuracy in Academia
Hotair
Powerline Blog
Conservative News Source
Conservative Activist

Conservative Blogs
Proudvet's Blog
Opinion Editorials
Political Polls
Twitter CF
Conservatives Directory Add Your Site
Conservative Blog Advertising
Forum Rules, User Agreement and Privacy Policy
Registering Information and Forum Rules