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RJK
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Re: Theodore Roosevelt Books
Reply #10 - 01/03/12 at 12:17:46
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As I stated your reasoning is nebulous. You have filled in no details. You say some laws are ok but others are not. But you can not define good from bad but you wish to blame TR for laws others enacted. You say some regulation is ok but to much is to much. I can agree with that as TR did. How wonderful that monopolies will  not survive after a certain point. That is shallow for an experienced educated businessman. You seem to think you can live without laws in society and everything will be ok. Or is it that you want some laws but do not want to consider which are ok or bad. You just wish to return to some time in the past where Adam Smith explained free enterprise or is it Milton Freedom that you miss-understand. These were great economist and we must understand how best to adopt something with their vision. But yours is a tangled web of unchecked privilege. What is required in society is that people be treated fair or at some point they will revolt. No special deal for you and no special deal for the weak. Everyone has a right to live and if someone of privilege says free enterprise should be allowed to an unfair advantage until they become so bloated that all the weak parish and then the strong will then need to change for their own survival you are the problem not the solution. Go back and look at the regulations TR put on business and how business prospered from well reasoned regulations. Do not take the easy road parroted by others. If you think it is ok for meat packers to produce bad meat because they will go out of business some day than tell me what you would say if your family died in the process of them going out of business. You logic is lacking for a civilized society or is it as I have said that you have not fully thought throw your reasoning and it is just a little nebulous.
« Last Edit: 01/03/12 at 23:47:56 by RJK »  
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Re: Theodore Roosevelt Books
Reply #11 - 01/03/12 at 23:40:29
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Lets take your last Post, point by point and please do me the same curtsey.

(You said)
I own a business as well, and have employed hundreds over the years.  I also have a graduate degree in economics, and will tell you straight forwardly that it is you who is the shallow thinker.  You apparently know very little about economics in a free market.

(My response or question)
Well I have beaten you up enough for your insolence, toward TR, he believe when in a fight that it was best to go for the knock out. Weak blows were not mercy but only prolonged a fight. Lets take a more Socratic approach and try to make the micro match the macro if we want to try to find a solution to our disagreement. Give me a micro that fits a macro in relation to TR doing wrong and I will bow to your argument. Are you of the supply side theory of right or demand side theory of right?

(You said)
Monopolies can form and exist for a short time in a free market, but cannot survive in the tong term without government regulation, which is precisely what TR advocated then, and what progressives advocate today.  Because of regulatory capture, large companies eager to eliminate smaller competitors and carve out a protected monopoly for themselves, depend on government interference to make themselves exempt from the discipline of a free market.

(My response or question)
You are talking theory when you talk about monopolies. The real world does not operate on theory. We need to speak about practical application, which is different because humans do not conform to pure theory no matter how much we wish they would.

(You said)
The government should involve itself in the market only to the extent of creating a system of law within which companies operate.

(My response or question)
We have something we can agree upon with this statement. I agree and I do not like government in my business any more than you do. But since we exist in a society laws are a requirement if they were not a requirement there would be no society. I hope we could agree upon that issue.

(You said)
Rockefeller's monopoly could not, and would not have survived for long in a free market.

(My response or question)
But at what cost as explained by my question about the meat packers and regulations. At what point is it fair to curb the monopoly. Do we wait until it strikes home on a individual basis of losing a family or is there a point that reasonable people decide that a little regulation is necessary? Or do you maintain that we should let the monopoly continue until market forces cause it's demise. If so I think your off base and so far right that you are out of bounds.,

(You said)
Your complaints about economic conditions you see as unfair today should be a big red flag for you.  America has one of the most heavily regulated economies in the world, and yet these conditions exist.  Why is that?  Is your solution to pile government regulation upon earlier regulation endlessly?  When do you realize how counterproductive your beliefs are?  You cannot solve a problem created by government regulation by yet more government regulation.

(My response or question)
Red flag yes, I could concede that Big Brother is to big of a factor in our day to day lives. But how does that relate to TR? You seem to be saying that because TR saw a need for regulation of Corporations that literally were killing people and destroying people lives that today’s regulations are his fault. I contend that what he did was necessary for the people and the corporations. But more than that any scientific method would look at the results of the new variables that were applied using the TR laws/ new variables. How would you explain that under TR both parties prospered? If business did not flourish you could blame TR.  But business flourished and you still blame TR there is something wrong with this Socratic reasoning. Please explain or bow to the possibility that you are blaming
  
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RJK
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Re: Theodore Roosevelt Books
Reply #12 - 01/03/12 at 23:54:53
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the wrong variable?
  
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RJK
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Re: Theodore Roosevelt Books
Reply #13 - 01/05/12 at 00:19:55
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Perhaps you can explain why you speak about pure theory when practical application is of the real world? As I have said in the opening to this debate that “ I have been down this road before” with others that use faulty reasoning about TR being the problem.

Let me explain your reasoning. 1. You do not like the over regulation of business today. 2. Theodore Roosevelt was very successful in regulating business during his state and federal administrations. 3. Since he was the first to be really successful in regulation he is the fault for today’s regulations. Is this not your line of reasoning?

The flaw with this reasoning is that you do not go back to see what he actually regulated and if it harmed business.  It did not harm business. Business actually prospered under the regulations he helped enact. Ergo what he did was not harmful. But others of a different philosophy enacted additional regulations or different laws  on top of his well reasoned law and then you blame him for other peoples folly. There is a disconnect in this reasoning.

If you go back to his time you would find that there was a faction that wanted all corporations dissolved and he fought tooth and nail against these reactionaries for a square deal for corporations. The beauty of TR is his willingness to treat rich an poor alike. But it is human nature for factions to believe that they deserve more than what is fair. You see it in war, how can both sides believe they are right. You see it in civil courts when two parties believe they have been wronged. TR is still being tarnished today by those that wanted more than what was fair to both sides.

You may not know that TR was one of our best-read presidents. Among his vast knowledge he gained and excellent idea of how all (recorded) nations rose and fell through history. He had 8000 books in his personal library and read many more than that. He wrote history books so that we in our day could learn from the past.

The thing I admire most about him is his honesty. You have a better chance of solving complex problems if people could be honest. You have heard of honest George Washington that could not tell a lie. You have heard of Honest Abe Lincoln. Well you need to learn that honesty was one of TR's central character taits. What he said you could take to the bank as if it were gold. I will give you $10,000 if you can find one area where he lied or said one thing in one section of the country that he said in another. He went one step further if there was something that was unpopular and he believed popular opinion was wrong he made it his duty to make his position clear. He did not want to be elected under false pretences. This is what got him in trouble in 1912 when he wanted to do something about judges legislating from the bench.

What I seek from you is to say what exact law that TR signed had an adverse effect upon business (not a law enacted by others after he was out of office). Then we will have a starting point for a logical debate about TR doing harm to the country he loved. A general statement will be a wrong variable. Remember we live in a practical world not a theoretical world of Adam Smith.
  
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Re: Theodore Roosevelt Books
Reply #14 - 01/09/12 at 22:20:13
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I guess when the questions got tuff you had no answers. It is my contention that progressives, post TR, is where the problems were generated. His policies were clear and necessary in the following areas. Where un-necessary regulations occurred they were enacted and promoted by people that never understood what TR meant by a square deal for all. You wrongly brand the wrong guy. If he were a role model for American Politicians and Citizens we would not have entitlement programs destroying our government and our politicians would honestly portray what they believed and how they would vote on an issue before an election. America needs a role model. TR is a role model if adopted by more and more citizens as the standard we would have a chance of getting out of this deep hole of quicksand that is smothering us inch by inch.

The achievements attributed to the Roosevelt Administration of seven years and the policies recommended by the strenuous President during that time are many. These, as arranged by his friends to illuminate his candidacy for the Presidency as leader of the Progressive Party in 1912, are:

1. Dolliver-Hepburn railroad act.

2. Extension of forest reserve.

3. National irrigation act.

4. Improvement of waterways and reservation of water-power sites.

5. Employers' liability act.

6. Safety appliance act.

7. Regulation  of  railroad employees' hours of labor.

8. Establishment   of   Department   of   Commerce and Labor.

9. Pure food and drugs act.

10. Federal meat inspection.

11. Navy doubled in tonnage and greatly increased in efficiency.

12. Battleship fleet sent around the world.

13. State   militia   brought   into   coordination with the army.

14. Canal zone acquired and work of excavation pushed with increased energy.

15. Development of civil self-government ininsular possessions.

16. Second  intervention in  Cuba;  Cuba  restored to the Cubans.

17. Finances of  Santo Domingo adjusted.

18. Alaska boundary dispute settled.

19. Reorganization of the consular service.

20. Settlement of the coal strike of 1902.

21. The Government upheld in the Northern Securities decision.

22. Conviction of post office grafters and public land thieves.

23. Investigation of the sugar trust customs frauds and resulting prosecutions.

24. Suits begun against the Standard Oil and Tobacco companies and other corporations for violation of the Sherman anti-trust act.

25. Corporations   forbidden to  contribute  to political campaign funds.

26. The door of China kept open to American commerce.

27. The   settlement   of   the   Russo-Japanese War by the treaty of Portsmouth.

28. Diplomatic entanglements created by the Pacific coast prejudice against Japanese immigration avoided.

29. Twenty-four treaties  of general arbitration negotiated.

30. Interest bearing debt reduced by more than $90,000,000.

31. Annual conference of Governors of States inaugurated.

32. Movement for conservation of natural resources inaugurated.

33. Movement for the improvement of conditions of country life inaugurated.
  
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Re: Theodore Roosevelt Books
Reply #15 - 01/27/12 at 19:42:37
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Progressives today don't want to discuss their own history. I want to discuss their history.&&&&(Quote)If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle - Sun Tzu (Art of War, Chapter 3)
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Re: Theodore Roosevelt Books
Reply #16 - 01/28/12 at 08:03:04
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I guess if you can not answer the question of the debate you change the subject. You lose! Go read Charles Darwin for some background on the subject you do not understand. Then open a new topic and maybe I will take the time to show you how to reason through a subject to understand all the varied qualifying statements that need to be considered when trying to develop theory.

But before that why not do yourself a favor and try to conquer ignorance with the discussion under which you tried to change the subject.
  
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Re: Theodore Roosevelt Books
Reply #17 - 02/10/12 at 10:53:47
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It's not easy for me to conduct a conversation with someone who thinks progressivism and big government are achievements.  In case you haven't noticed, I blog about their own history.  Progressivism is evil, and that's what I catalog.  Their history proves it.
  

Progressives today don't want to discuss their own history. I want to discuss their history.&&&&(Quote)If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle - Sun Tzu (Art of War, Chapter 3)
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Re: Theodore Roosevelt Books
Reply #18 - 02/10/12 at 14:13:22
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Sir or Mam; You again try to change the subject when you can not answer a question that shows a problem with your reasoning. You are cheating yourself. You value your unsupported position more than discovering the error in your reasoning. Be brave do not place holding ignorance as more valuable than honestly answering questions. I know it is hard if you are fearful to expose the error in your reasoning. There are many ways to go wrong but only one path to the truth.
  
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