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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Islam Is Not a Religion & Should Be Banned (Read 37,045 times)
Shooterman
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Re: Islam Is Not a Religion & Should Be Banned
Reply #90 - 06/16/12 at 12:28:21
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gabriel wrote on 06/15/12 at 16:12:32:
God is sovereign, and God will save whom He will save. †His ways are not your ways. ††I'm sure you feel confident in your faith, but it might be wise to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, and leave salvation to Christ alone. †



Exactly correct, Gabe. Whoever the Lord saves, is His business and His alone. It is not for the created to impose conditions on the Creator.
  

Our Bill of Rights constitutes a cluster of little foxholes of liberty ground into the hard cold face of history by helpless men for a shield against the lash of tyrants. They are the result of distrust of power and distrust of men in power. They are a recognition of Lord Acton's statement of a truth eternal--"power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."R. CARTER PITTMAN&&Dalton, Ga., Sept. 28, 1955.DRAFT JAN MORGAN FOR PRESIDENT!
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Cameron Reddy
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Re: Islam Is Not a Religion & Should Be Banned
Reply #91 - 07/12/12 at 21:05:29
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Well, to the extent that it advocates for the killing of anyone and everyone who fails to convert, such a doctrine has no place in America. Unfortunately, as long as we have a president who favors Islam at every opportunity, we are in for a world of hurt.
  
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BillyBob5444
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Re: Islam Is Not a Religion & Should Be Banned
Reply #92 - 07/13/12 at 02:36:29
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True story... islamisbad.com

The Armenian Genocide wasn't pretty.
  
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Ouroboros
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Re: Islam Is Not a Religion & Should Be Banned
Reply #93 - 08/07/12 at 11:54:25
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Scanner wrote on 06/17/11 at 08:37:38:
Islam should not be protected under the 1st Amendment simply because Islam is not a religion. †I (and many others) claim Islam is not a religion. Of course we claim that. How naive could anybody be, to be so snookered/hoodwinked/conned that they would believe that Islam is a religion ? The idea of Islam being a religion is the world's biggest and longest-running con job.

Don't you know that the only reason Islam ever became a "religion" was to shield the founders from the severe criticism they know they would get as soon as they let loose with this insane abomination, on the populations of the 7th century ?

How do you expect people would react when you tell them > "Uh folks, I have an announcement to make. We have a new system setting up which we would like you to join with us in. It's called Islam. †It is going to involve massive genocide on 3 continents, severe misogyny (including wife beating), kidnapping, slavery, pedophilia, animal cruelty, torture, and mutilation. It's gonna be fun ! Are you with us ?"

So, instead of that nutty scenario, to shield themselves, they needed something to force the people into accepting them and joining them. They found it > GOD. Something no one wants to go up against. So, with that, + killing all the ones who opposed them (270 million people over 1400 years), these uncivilized, barbaric, savages rampaged all over Asia Minor, southern Europe, and north Africa for over 100 years, conquering, all the while calling themselves a religion. †Nonsense. † † Roll Eyes

2. †Islam, a supremacist political ideology, should be banned by virtue of its violation of Article 6 section 2 of the Constitution (the Supremacy Clause). †In a nutshell, the 1st Amendment allows people to practice a religion. †This, however is only within the confines that the "religion" does not supersede the Constitution, placing itself above all else. †Problem with Islam is, it does just that. †Shouldn't be any problem (legally) with banning Islam, as long as enough politicians can get their heads out of their you-know-whats to do it.

Where do I start?
Christianity and Judaism have both long running histories of violence and repression against others. Holy wars, witch burnings, etc. The bible itself repeatedly advocates violence against others in the name of God in the form of slavery and murder, not to mention that whole Revelations ending where the nonbelievers are sentenced to an eternity of ultimate suffering. So the argument that Islam is invalid because it's violent doesn't hold water.

I do agree that Sharia law is invalid here, as it attempts to introduce a political set of laws that does not apply to American values. But insisting that a religion is not a religion because you don't like it is not constitutional.
  
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Trip
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Re: Islam Is Not a Religion & Should Be Banned
Reply #94 - 08/07/12 at 17:27:43
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Where do I start?
Christianity and Judaism have both long running histories of violence and repression against others. Holy wars, witch burnings, etc. The bible itself repeatedly advocates violence against others in the name of God in the form of slavery and murder, not to mention that whole Revelations ending where the nonbelievers are sentenced to an eternity of ultimate suffering. So the argument that Islam is invalid because it's violent doesn't hold water.

I do agree that Sharia law is invalid here, as it attempts to introduce a political set of laws that does not apply to American values. But insisting that a religion is not a religion because you don't like it is not constitutional.



Nonsense. 

Unlike the Koran, the Bible itself does not issue platitudinous statements that "advocate" violence against others in the name of God. The old Testament does recount the history of the Hebrews and the warfare that went on involving them and other peoples, but this was a matter of their existence and survival.   There are no platitudes in the Bible to kill all non-believers, but there are in the Koran, and repeatedly

You speak of slavery, but enslavement was a far better treatment then than death as a penalty when one could not pay their debts, or they lost in warfare.     The did not have an employment office and job bank, and peoples were not so tolerant of those who lost combat, remaining around to attack those who won.  Not only are you creating a falsehood that does not exist in the Bible, but also you're judging biblical historical events with a contemporary contemptuous eye, which is exceedingly blind to the realities of those times.

The recountings of violence in the Bible are not platitudes, but rather are historical, and thereby situationally and temporally limited.  The only platitudinous statements given, are those directed upon the Hebrews themselves, and they were voluntary members of that society and religion, and not outsiders.

Trying to equate Islam with with Judaism or Christianity, even at the worst moments of those two religions, is just a comparison that has no veracity.

There can be no bona fide (literally "good faith") religion when there is no real freedom of faith to begin with, and that is fundamentally the problem of Islam. It is a coercive, dictatorial ideology that penetrates all aspects of life, and allows no freedom of faith or adherence.



  

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Ouroboros
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Re: Islam Is Not a Religion & Should Be Banned
Reply #95 - 08/07/12 at 18:23:48
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Trip wrote on 08/07/12 at 17:27:43:
Nonsense. †

Unlike the Koran, the Bible itself does not issue platitudinous statements that "advocate" violence against others in the name of God. The old Testament does recount the history of the Hebrews and the warfare that went on involving them and other peoples, but this was a matter of their existence and survival. † There are no platitudes in the Bible to kill all non-believers, but there are in the Koran, and repeatedly

You speak of slavery, but enslavement was a far better treatment then than death as a penalty when one could not pay their debts, or they lost in warfare. † † The did not have an employment office and job bank, and peoples were not so tolerant of those who lost combat, remaining around to attack those who won. †Not only are you creating a falsehood that does not exist in the Bible, but also you're judging biblical historical events with a contemporary contemptuous eye, which is exceedingly blind to the realities of those times.

The recountings of violence in the Bible are not platitudes, but rather are historical, and thereby situationally and temporally limited. †The only platitudinous statements given, are those directed upon the Hebrews themselves, and they were voluntary members of that society and religion, and not outsiders.

Trying to equate Islam with with Judaism or Christianity, even at the worst moments of those two religions, is just a comparison that has no veracity.

There can be no bona fide (literally "good faith") religion when there is no real freedom of faith to begin with, and that is fundamentally the problem of Islam. It is a coercive, dictatorial ideology that penetrates all aspects of life, and allows no freedom of faith or adherence.





Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. †In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. †If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. †Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. †Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. †That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. †Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. †Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. †He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. †"The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." †(Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or your intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. †Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. †You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. †And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. †(Deuteronomy 13:7-12)

Those two (out of many others) don't just advocate but REQUIRE that Christians kill others who don't believe in God.

In regards to slavery, times were certainly different. But if a thread is started that refers to the historical evils of Islam as an argument to disqualify it as a religion, then other religions must be held to the same standard.
  
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Trip
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Re: Islam Is Not a Religion & Should Be Banned
Reply #96 - 08/07/12 at 18:48:09
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Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. †In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. †If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. †Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. †Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. †That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. †Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. †Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. †He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. †"The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." †(Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)



That's great, except it has one enormous oversight which enables your evaluation.

That edict was only to the Hebrews, the chosen people... their clan, their tribe. †

It was not applicable to others.

Let me put that in context of the present day:

If we had good sense still in this country, "American sense" if you will, we would ostracize the so-called "Progressive" ideology because it is antithetical to this country's beliefs and nowhere a part of this country's tenets, but hostile to to such founding principles as individual rights, due process, right to property. †Instead of recognizing the Progressive socialist idealogy for what it is, we treat it as if it were a part of legitimate American political spectrum, and it is subject to the whim of the people, (imposed on other people). †

Even Madison, in Federalist #10 recognized the threat of Progressive ideology (if not by name), pointing to "theoretic politicians" (today's 'intellectual elites') who patronize a species of government (not our species) that "erroneously" believes that "mischiefs of faction" (social class conflict) can be removed by, quote, "reducing mankind to perfect equality" by "assimilation of their possessions, their opinions, and passions." In 1787 Madison recognized these views as a threat to Liberty and antithetical to this country.

Todays Progressive "intellectual elites", believe in wealth redistribution (possessions), politically correct speech (opinions), and a dictation of what we might legitimately do with our lives (passions), all of which is in conflict with our founding principles of individual freedoms. †Madison wrote this decades before Marx ever put pen to paper. †Despite the fact that we †are not a democracy, and individual liberties are unalienable, we today treat these Progressive ideology as if it were somehow legitimate within this country's political spectrum, when this is untrue and not even possible. † Yet we marvel as our society and economy are racing toward collapse.

When the values of a society are corrupted, that society cannot survive, and it will die. The importance of maintaining the values of a society were even more crucial then, than now, because that survival was even more tenuous then.

These values were not projected upon other tribes and other peoples, contrary to your implications, †but rather only upon the Hebrews themselves, and no others.

  

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Trip
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Re: Islam Is Not a Religion & Should Be Banned
Reply #97 - 08/07/12 at 19:14:48
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If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or your intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. †Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. †You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. †And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. †(Deuteronomy 13:7-12)

Those two (out of many others) don't just advocate but REQUIRE that Christians kill others who don't believe in God.

In regards to slavery, times were certainly different. But if a thread is started that refers to the historical evils of Islam as an argument to disqualify it as a religion, then other religions must be held to the same standard.


Fist off, they were not "Christians", but rather Hebrews. †

Secondly, this was not killing "others" but was applied to only the Hebrew tribe(s) themselves, and not other peoples.

Third, this is from Deuteronomy, the Old Testament, and is a recounting of history (Hebrew history at that), from the founding patriarchal period. †As that history, those commands are clearly constrained by temporal and situational conditions. They are not ongoing commands that were recognized by the Christian tradition. The Christian tradition replaced that ideology with the teachings of Christ. The Biblical laws are passed on by "testaments" from God to one individual, who then relays the teachings to the community. The old testament was passed by Moses, and the New Testament by Christ.

Not only are not "Christians" killing anyone, but those Hebrews in history are not killing "others" according to those edicts either!

The problem is we're not talking about "historical evils of Islam" but rather what is viewed by current Islam as ongoing, open-ended commands, which are seen repeatedly throughout their fundamental texts, specifically the Koran and Haddith. †These are current day evils of Islam, still in application.

Among those evils of Islam, is the denial of "faith freedom", the ability of an individual to choose what faith they follow, something which both Christianity and Judaism promote, and is nowhere present in Islam ... and we see that continually *today* in Islamic brutalities in the name of Allah! 

From FaithFreedom.org (founded by ex-muslims):
    Islamic terrorism is inspired by Islamic teachings. We can never get rid of this terror unless we defeat the ideology behind it. Islam induces hate backed by lies.

    The terrorists are not radicalized Muslims. They are real Muslims. The non-terrorist Muslims are wishy-washy Muslims. All it takes for them to become terrorists is a spark of faith.

    If you donít approve of islamic jihad, you cannot be a Muslim. Umma is divisive. It induces the hatred of others. We invite you to be part of humanity instead and love all the people whether believers or non-believers.


Without freedom of faith, there is no real faith (religion) at all. It is simply a dictatorial social system - tyranny.

The similar adherence to dictatorial system is why, †I believe, that we see today's Progressives (not at all "Liberal") continually supporting and defending Islam as if it were every bit as legitimate as Christianity and Judaism. †Those Progressives themselves promote an all-encompassing dictatorial social system, and as with ObamaCare and everything else, they give us no choice about it.




  

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Ouroboros
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Re: Islam Is Not a Religion & Should Be Banned
Reply #98 - 08/08/12 at 12:03:29
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Trip wrote on 08/07/12 at 18:48:09:
That's great, except it has one enormous oversight which enables your evaluation.

That edict was only to the Hebrews, the chosen people... their clan, their tribe. †

It was not applicable to others.

Let me put that in context of the present day:

If we had good sense still in this country, "American sense" if you will, we would ostracize the so-called "Progressive" ideology because it is antithetical to this country's beliefs and nowhere a part of this country's tenets, but hostile to to such founding principles as individual rights, due process, right to property. †Instead of recognizing the Progressive socialist idealogy for what it is, we treat it as if it were a part of legitimate American political spectrum, and it is subject to the whim of the people, (imposed on other people). †

Even Madison, in Federalist #10 recognized the threat of Progressive ideology (if not by name), pointing to "theoretic politicians" (today's 'intellectual elites') who patronize a species of government (not our species) that "erroneously" believes that "mischiefs of faction" (social class conflict) can be removed by, quote, "reducing mankind to perfect equality" by "assimilation of their possessions, their opinions, and passions." In 1787 Madison recognized these views as a threat to Liberty and antithetical to this country.

Todays Progressive "intellectual elites", believe in wealth redistribution (possessions), politically correct speech (opinions), and a dictation of what we might legitimately do with our lives (passions), all of which is in conflict with our founding principles of individual freedoms. †Madison wrote this decades before Marx ever put pen to paper. †Despite the fact that we †are not a democracy, and individual liberties are unalienable, we today treat these Progressive ideology as if it were somehow legitimate within this country's political spectrum, when this is untrue and not even possible. † Yet we marvel as our society and economy are racing toward collapse.

When the values of a society are corrupted, that society cannot survive, and it will die. The importance of maintaining the values of a society were even more crucial then, than now, because that survival was even more tenuous then.

These values were not projected upon other tribes and other peoples, contrary to your implications, †but rather only upon the Hebrews themselves, and no others.


Thank you for your thoughtful response. Religious discussion often devolves into name calling, and I do want to understand the conservative view.
I have to say here that I am registered independent, in favor of fiscal conservatism, personal rights and minimal government. This is not coming from an ultra liberal. But it makes me very nervous when people talk about legislating or otherwise legally restricting the rights of people to practice their religion in our nation.
While I do understand that I have cited the old testament and that Christians distance themselves from these doctrines, Christian people have used the Bible in its entirety to support historic and continued violence against others. I DO agree that the muslim faith and Koran are more overt in their controlling nature, but I would also point out that Christians, even today, are attempting to restrict the rights of others through religious doctrine. Gay marriage is a good example of this; Christians determine that gay marriage is a religious sin, and therefore want to legislate against it. That combination bothers me quite a bit. The murders of Sikh people in Wisconsin, various murders of gay people here in America and abroad, bombing of abortion clinics, the massacre in Oslo, Ku Klux Klan crimes...all are modern examples of how Christian extremists can use their faith to justify horrible crimes.
My point is - using the actions of extremists from ANY religion to determine its validity as an acceptable system of beliefs is wrong.
  
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Ouroboros
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Re: Islam Is Not a Religion & Should Be Banned
Reply #99 - 08/08/12 at 12:16:39
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Trip wrote on 08/07/12 at 18:48:09:
That's great, except it has one enormous oversight which enables your evaluation.

That edict was only to the Hebrews, the chosen people... their clan, their tribe. †

It was not applicable to others.

Let me put that in context of the present day:

If we had good sense still in this country, "American sense" if you will, we would ostracize the so-called "Progressive" ideology because it is antithetical to this country's beliefs and nowhere a part of this country's tenets, but hostile to to such founding principles as individual rights, due process, right to property. †Instead of recognizing the Progressive socialist idealogy for what it is, we treat it as if it were a part of legitimate American political spectrum, and it is subject to the whim of the people, (imposed on other people). †

Even Madison, in Federalist #10 recognized the threat of Progressive ideology (if not by name), pointing to "theoretic politicians" (today's 'intellectual elites') who patronize a species of government (not our species) that "erroneously" believes that "mischiefs of faction" (social class conflict) can be removed by, quote, "reducing mankind to perfect equality" by "assimilation of their possessions, their opinions, and passions." In 1787 Madison recognized these views as a threat to Liberty and antithetical to this country.

Todays Progressive "intellectual elites", believe in wealth redistribution (possessions), politically correct speech (opinions), and a dictation of what we might legitimately do with our lives (passions), all of which is in conflict with our founding principles of individual freedoms. †Madison wrote this decades before Marx ever put pen to paper. †Despite the fact that we †are not a democracy, and individual liberties are unalienable, we today treat these Progressive ideology as if it were somehow legitimate within this country's political spectrum, when this is untrue and not even possible. † Yet we marvel as our society and economy are racing toward collapse.

When the values of a society are corrupted, that society cannot survive, and it will die. The importance of maintaining the values of a society were even more crucial then, than now, because that survival was even more tenuous then.

These values were not projected upon other tribes and other peoples, contrary to your implications, †but rather only upon the Hebrews themselves, and no others.


I have to respond to the idea of common sense values separately. That's another subject.
While I agree that democrats try to "redistribute" wealth in favor of the poor, I also think that republicans have worked to "redistribute" wealth in favor of the rich. In my eyes, neither approach is correct. Welfare programs and the like should never be handled at the federal level, just as corporations should have no hand in politics. Both sides will invariably skew our economic picture for the worse.
Democrats would have us support a welfare state and be oversensitive to the rights of people who would do us harm, yes.
But republicans would have us be a Christian dominated nation that still believes in trickle down economics. If the economic collapse has shown us anything, it's that rich people don't put their money back into the system to keep it running.

I don't agree with either. I want religion (ALL RELIGION) out of my government, I don't want the fed handing out money in the form of welfare OR tax breaks for corporations and the rich (flat tax anyone?), and I'm not interested in being told how to live my life.
  
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