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Poll Question: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
bars   pie

The Federal Government    
  1 (7.1%)
The people of The US Collectively    
  2 (14.3%)
The States Which Created The Union    
  4 (28.6%)
The People of The States    
  5 (35.7%)
The Constitution    
  2 (14.3%)




Total votes: 14
« Created by: Shooterman on: 05/23/12 at 10:39:50 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US? (Read 15,129 times)
Shooterman
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Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
05/23/12 at 10:39:50
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To answer this question, one must ask him/her self who formed the Union. Was it, as per Abe Lincoln, the Continental Congress in 1774, creating an indissoluble union that has existed until this very day? Was it the perpetual Union formed by the states under The Articles of Confederation, was it the States, meeting in convention, first in 1787 to write the Constitution, and later in ratifying conventions to approve the Constitution? Was in in 1789 when eleven States had ratified said Constitution?

Does the Union have sovereignty or sovereign powers.
  

Our Bill of Rights constitutes a cluster of little foxholes of liberty ground into the hard cold face of history by helpless men for a shield against the lash of tyrants. They are the result of distrust of power and distrust of men in power. They are a recognition of Lord Acton's statement of a truth eternal--"power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."R. CARTER PITTMAN&&Dalton, Ga., Sept. 28, 1955.DRAFT JAN MORGAN FOR PRESIDENT!
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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #1 - 05/23/12 at 14:08:47
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The citizens, collectively, have sovereign powers, which they, in concert through the ballot box, lend to the government.  The selective powers which they lend to the government are directed to and are pertinent to a targeted level, town, county, state or federal.

I believe that the question should not be, 'Who formed the Union?', but, 'Who authorized the forming of the Union?'
  
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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #2 - 05/23/12 at 14:52:28
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Picker wrote on 05/23/12 at 14:08:47:
The citizens, collectively, have sovereign powers, which they, in concert through the ballot box, lend to the government. The selective powers which they lend to the government are directed to and are pertinent to a targeted level, town, county, state or federal.


Whoa, slow down for this old boy. What citizens, collectively? State? Nation?

I hope I am wrong, but my reading of your answer, is that the citizens of the US, collectively formed the union, which is the antithesis of what the Founders advocated.

Quote:
I believe that the question should not be, 'Who formed the Union?', but, 'Who authorized the forming of the Union?'


I suggest, Pick, that by determining who formed the union, then the question as to who authorized the forming of the union will be answered.
  

Our Bill of Rights constitutes a cluster of little foxholes of liberty ground into the hard cold face of history by helpless men for a shield against the lash of tyrants. They are the result of distrust of power and distrust of men in power. They are a recognition of Lord Acton's statement of a truth eternal--"power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."R. CARTER PITTMAN&&Dalton, Ga., Sept. 28, 1955.DRAFT JAN MORGAN FOR PRESIDENT!
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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #3 - 05/23/12 at 15:14:17
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Shooterman wrote on 05/23/12 at 14:52:28:
Whoa, slow down for this old boy. What citizens, collectively? State? Nation?

I hope I am wrong, but my reading of your answer, is that the citizens of the US, collectively formed the union, which is the antithesis of what the Founders advocated.


I suggest, Pick, that by determining who formed the union, then the question as to who authorized the forming of the union will be answered.


This really goes to the heart of my conviction that the Founders recognized, organized and codified an existing universal truth; that the person is sovereign. The collective citizens of a town exercise sovereignty for their local unit. Sovereignty over county, state and federal domains is exercised by the citizens of those areas, collectively by the ballot.

Sovereignty is the final authority, so while the Founders did the nuts and bolts work, it was only when the citizenry exercised its authority by approving their efforts that the union actually existed.

It is true that the Founders wished to avoid pure democracy while allowing each citizen to have his say. They decided, to our great benefit, that citizen sovereignty, expressed through duly elected representatives, would preserve that concept.

Shooter, I am only expressing my personal interpretation and opinion.

  
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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #4 - 05/23/12 at 16:09:37
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Picker wrote on 05/23/12 at 15:14:17:
This really goes to the heart of my conviction that the Founders recognized, organized and codified an existing universal truth; that the person is sovereign. The collective citizens of a town exercise sovereignty for their local unit. Sovereignty over county, state and federal domains is exercised by the citizens of those areas, collectively by the ballot.

Sovereignty is the final authority, so while the Founders did the nuts and bolts work, it was only when the citizenry exercised its authority by approving their efforts that the union actually existed.

It is true that the Founders wished to avoid pure democracy while allowing each citizen to have his say. They decided, to our great benefit, that citizen sovereignty, expressed through duly elected representatives, would preserve that concept.

Shooter, I am only expressing my personal interpretation and opinion.


I understand this is your interpretation and opinion. That is basically all any forum is.

As my studying and learning has evolved, so has my understanding of more of what moved the Founders. R Carter Pittman and through him, George Mason, have been great teachers as to those little fox holes of freedom we as citizens can take shelter in from the marauding Big Government. James Jack Kilpatrick, for many years one of the most prolific conservative writers we have ever had, wrote a book in 1957 titled 'The Sovereign States- Notes of a Citizen of Virginia'. The book is in the public domain. The link, should you care to bookmark it and read at your convenience, is    http://sovereignstates.org/books/The_Sovereign_States/SovereignStates.html

I had read it once before and started it again for my edification. It is highly recommended.
  

Our Bill of Rights constitutes a cluster of little foxholes of liberty ground into the hard cold face of history by helpless men for a shield against the lash of tyrants. They are the result of distrust of power and distrust of men in power. They are a recognition of Lord Acton's statement of a truth eternal--"power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."R. CARTER PITTMAN&&Dalton, Ga., Sept. 28, 1955.DRAFT JAN MORGAN FOR PRESIDENT!
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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #5 - 05/24/12 at 12:45:20
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Shooterman wrote on 05/23/12 at 16:09:37:
I understand this is your interpretation and opinion. That is basically all any forum is.

As my studying and learning has evolved, so has my understanding of more of what moved the Founders. R Carter Pittman and through him, George Mason, have been great teachers as to those little fox holes of freedom we as citizens can take shelter in from the marauding Big Government. James Jack Kilpatrick, for many years one of the most prolific conservative writers we have ever had, wrote a book in 1957 titled 'The Sovereign States- Notes of a Citizen of Virginia'. The book is in the public domain. The link, should you care to bookmark it and read at your convenience, is http://sovereignstates.org/books/The_Sovereign_States/SovereignStates.html

I had read it once before and started it again for my edification. It is highly recommended.


Thanks for the reference. I just started to read "The 5,000 Year Leap", and it is just possible that I will live long enough to get to, "The Sovereign States".

To further clarify my take on the matter, I was not trying to answer the question of who formed the Union, but where does the sovereignty rest.

Except in the rarest of circumstances, total agreement on a particular matter is difficult to reach. The Founders, as you point out, wished to produce a plan for a democratic government, but to avoid the tyranny of the majority over the minority. The genius of their results lies in the replication of the three-branched government down to the most local authority, the town. While this cannot totally prevent the undesirable "tyranny", it does break it down to the smallest denominator.

Now, if I can get picky, the citizens of the U. S. could not have formed the union because there was no U.S. at the time. The sovereignty (authority to act in the matter) rested with the States, each being an independent unit. The states referred the question to their citizens in recognition of their sovereignty.

I suggest that "The people of the United States, collectively", and "The people of the States" really are not descriptive of different populations. The States, in approving the formation of the Union, were merely forwarding the collectively expressed approval of the people of each State. Thus, the ultimate sovereignty of the people made itself felt.


  
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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #6 - 05/24/12 at 16:10:31
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Picker wrote on 05/24/12 at 12:45:20:
Thanks for the reference. I just started to read "The 5,000 Year Leap", and it is just possible that I will live long enough to get to, "The Sovereign States".

To further clarify my take on the matter, I was not trying to answer the question of who formed the Union, but where does the sovereignty rest.

Except in the rarest of circumstances, total agreement on a particular matter is difficult to reach. The Founders, as you point out, wished to produce a plan for a democratic government, but to avoid the tyranny of the majority over the minority. The genius of their results lies in the replication of the three-branched government down to the most local authority, the town. While this cannot totally prevent the undesirable "tyranny", it does break it down to the smallest denominator.

Now, if I can get picky, the citizens of the U. S. could not have formed the union because there was no U.S. at the time. The sovereignty (authority to act in the matter) rested with the States, each being an independent unit. The states referred the question to their citizens in recognition of their sovereignty.

I suggest that "The people of the United States, collectively", and "The people of the States" really are not descriptive of different populations. The States, in approving the formation of the Union, were merely forwarding the collectively expressed approval of the people of each State. Thus, the ultimate sovereignty of the people made itself felt.


I believe I see where you are coming from, Pick. I will say this. Lincoln believe the Union came first and then created the states, rather than the other way around.

As the states in convention, ratified the Compact, thereby joining the union, so could the states de-ratify the Compact and leave the union. Unfortunately for the country, the states wishing to leave were held against their will by superior force of arms. The sovereignty of the peoples of those states were subjected to the sovereignty of the peoples of the states that held them in the union, thereby making them less than sovereign..
  

Our Bill of Rights constitutes a cluster of little foxholes of liberty ground into the hard cold face of history by helpless men for a shield against the lash of tyrants. They are the result of distrust of power and distrust of men in power. They are a recognition of Lord Acton's statement of a truth eternal--"power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."R. CARTER PITTMAN&&Dalton, Ga., Sept. 28, 1955.DRAFT JAN MORGAN FOR PRESIDENT!
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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #7 - 05/24/12 at 16:12:12
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'Tis indeed a shame no one else seems interested in such a discussion.

Thanks be to you, Pick.
  

Our Bill of Rights constitutes a cluster of little foxholes of liberty ground into the hard cold face of history by helpless men for a shield against the lash of tyrants. They are the result of distrust of power and distrust of men in power. They are a recognition of Lord Acton's statement of a truth eternal--"power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."R. CARTER PITTMAN&&Dalton, Ga., Sept. 28, 1955.DRAFT JAN MORGAN FOR PRESIDENT!
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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #8 - 05/24/12 at 17:55:17
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Thank you, also, Shooter.  Ref. your slogan and castor oil, I spent 23 winters in the deep south, and I can tell you that castor oil is much more palatable when sweetened with a little Vermont maple syrup. Smiley
  
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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #9 - 05/24/12 at 19:21:25
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Picker wrote on 05/24/12 at 17:55:17:
Thank you, also, Shooter. Ref. your slogan and castor oil, I spent 23 winters in the deep south, and I can tell you that castor oil is much more palatable when sweetened with a little Vermont maple syrup. Smiley


I prefer Sugar Cane Syrup. Never cared for the watery stuff.
  

Our Bill of Rights constitutes a cluster of little foxholes of liberty ground into the hard cold face of history by helpless men for a shield against the lash of tyrants. They are the result of distrust of power and distrust of men in power. They are a recognition of Lord Acton's statement of a truth eternal--"power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."R. CARTER PITTMAN&&Dalton, Ga., Sept. 28, 1955.DRAFT JAN MORGAN FOR PRESIDENT!
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