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Poll Question: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
bars   pie

The Federal Government    
  1 (7.1%)
The people of The US Collectively    
  2 (14.3%)
The States Which Created The Union    
  4 (28.6%)
The People of The States    
  5 (35.7%)
The Constitution    
  2 (14.3%)




Total votes: 14
« Created by: Shooterman on: 05/23/12 at 10:39:50 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US? (Read 15,243 times)
Picker
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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #10 - 05/25/12 at 07:30:56
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Shooterman wrote on 05/24/12 at 16:10:31:
I believe I see where you are coming from, Pick. I will say this. Lincoln believe the Union came first and then created the states, rather than the other way around.

As the states in convention, ratified the Compact, thereby joining the union, so could the states de-ratify the Compact and leave the union. Unfortunately for the country, the states wishing to leave were held against their will by superior force of arms. The sovereignty of the peoples of those states were subjected to the sovereignty of the peoples of the states that held them in the union, thereby making them less than sovereign..


I have always thought that Lincoln regarded the entrance of a state into the Union the same as a party signing an agreement to a contract which contained no provision for release from that contract. Attempts to break the contract would result in punitive action. (a little like joining the Mafia, "Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in again").   Wink
  
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Shooterman
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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #11 - 05/25/12 at 07:53:31
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Picker wrote on 05/25/12 at 07:30:56:
I have always thought that Lincoln regarded the entrance of a state into the Union the same as a party signing an agreement to a contract which contained no provision for release from that contract. Attempts to break the contract would result in punitive action. (a little like joining the Mafia, "Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in again").   Wink


He did, after he at one time, favored it. ( my understanding ) This would be tantamount to a marriage in which one party totally abused the other party and told him/her that if you leave I will hunt you down and kill you.

If the union created the states, the precept would be true, but the states, in convention, created the union.
  

Our Bill of Rights constitutes a cluster of little foxholes of liberty ground into the hard cold face of history by helpless men for a shield against the lash of tyrants. They are the result of distrust of power and distrust of men in power. They are a recognition of Lord Acton's statement of a truth eternal--"power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."R. CARTER PITTMAN&&Dalton, Ga., Sept. 28, 1955.DRAFT JAN MORGAN FOR PRESIDENT!
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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #12 - 05/25/12 at 20:48:16
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The wording of the question seemed to me to be present tense, so I answered "all the people collectively in US."  Sorta like "We The People."
  
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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #13 - 05/26/12 at 00:07:52
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Big Steve wrote on 05/25/12 at 20:48:16:
The wording of the question seemed to me to be present tense, so I answered "all the people collectively in US."  Sorta like "We The People."


That does seem to be the concept in today's language after the gulag training of the public schools, but a reading of the Founders disproves that presumption.
  

Our Bill of Rights constitutes a cluster of little foxholes of liberty ground into the hard cold face of history by helpless men for a shield against the lash of tyrants. They are the result of distrust of power and distrust of men in power. They are a recognition of Lord Acton's statement of a truth eternal--"power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."R. CARTER PITTMAN&&Dalton, Ga., Sept. 28, 1955.DRAFT JAN MORGAN FOR PRESIDENT!
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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #14 - 05/26/12 at 11:53:12
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Prior to the war between the states the USA was referred to as "these United States".  After the war we were referred to as "this United States".  Entirely different concept.
  

Intellectual: Uses more words than necessary to tell you more than he knows
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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #15 - 05/26/12 at 14:30:47
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duster wrote on 05/26/12 at 11:53:12:
Prior to the war between the states the USA was referred to as "these United States".  After the war we were referred to as "this United States".  Entirely different concept.



Yeppers. The states united in America became the Tnited States of America.
  

Our Bill of Rights constitutes a cluster of little foxholes of liberty ground into the hard cold face of history by helpless men for a shield against the lash of tyrants. They are the result of distrust of power and distrust of men in power. They are a recognition of Lord Acton's statement of a truth eternal--"power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."R. CARTER PITTMAN&&Dalton, Ga., Sept. 28, 1955.DRAFT JAN MORGAN FOR PRESIDENT!
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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #16 - 05/30/12 at 03:40:56
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I think we might have been better off if we had remained true to the political instincts of the anti-federalist founding fathers.  But that hasn't happened, and it will be difficult to change the consequences of history.  Sovereignty will no longer be defined as being rooted in the 'states" as opposed to the "people."  

I'm not sure that it's even legitimate to assume - as I have in my more idealistic moments - that the history of the erosion of individual liberties would have been significantly different if the anti-federalists had prevailed.  The natural course of government is toward greater centralization of power and the loss of individual liberty.  That dynamic would still have been determinative no matter where the founding fathers decided the balance of power between federal and state governments should be.

And, what really is the difference for the individual if he loses his freedoms to a state government as opposed to a federal government?
  
"I have one great fear in my heart, that one day when they have turned to loving, they will find we are turned to hating."
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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #17 - 05/30/12 at 08:34:52
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gabriel wrote on 05/30/12 at 03:40:56:
I think we might have been better off if we had remained true to the political instincts of the anti-federalist founding fathers.  But that hasn't happened, and it will be difficult to change the consequences of history.  Sovereignty will no longer be defined as being rooted in the 'states" as opposed to the "people."  

I'm not sure that it's even legitimate to assume - as I have in my more idealistic moments - that the history of the erosion of individual liberties would have been significantly different if the anti-federalists had prevailed.  The natural course of government is toward greater centralization of power and the loss of individual liberty.  That dynamic would still have been determinative no matter where the founding fathers decided the balance of power between federal and state governments should be.

And, what really is the difference for the individual if he loses his freedoms to a state government as opposed to a federal government?


One can always transfer his/her self to another state he/she determines is more apt to recognize individual rights.
  

Our Bill of Rights constitutes a cluster of little foxholes of liberty ground into the hard cold face of history by helpless men for a shield against the lash of tyrants. They are the result of distrust of power and distrust of men in power. They are a recognition of Lord Acton's statement of a truth eternal--"power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."R. CARTER PITTMAN&&Dalton, Ga., Sept. 28, 1955.DRAFT JAN MORGAN FOR PRESIDENT!
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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #18 - 05/30/12 at 08:57:26
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Shooterman wrote on 05/30/12 at 08:34:52:
One can always transfer his/her self to another state he/she determines is more apt to recognize individual rights.



As well as to another country, shooter.  Eventually there aren't any other places left.
  
"I have one great fear in my heart, that one day when they have turned to loving, they will find we are turned to hating."
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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #19 - 05/30/12 at 16:10:34
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It seems to me, that the transfer of power from the citizen to the government, is not a result of the government grabbing power.  It is the result of the people surrendering power to the government.  In most cases, the people trade their power for monetary gain.  Federal aid comes with strings that bind.

Also, compromise, the grease which makes the congress work, usually involves retreat on demands or principle.  The Founders had a really tough job, and it isn't done yet.  
  
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