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Poll Question: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
bars   pie

The Federal Government    
  1 (7.1%)
The people of The US Collectively    
  2 (14.3%)
The States Which Created The Union    
  4 (28.6%)
The People of The States    
  5 (35.7%)
The Constitution    
  2 (14.3%)




Total votes: 14
« Created by: Shooterman on: 05/23/12 at 10:39:50 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US? (Read 15,245 times)
Picker
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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #30 - 08/10/12 at 11:18:49
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Trip wrote on 08/09/12 at 22:10:47:
There's nothing sacrosanct about the will of the majority, and it certainly is not cause to allow an agenda in conflict with this country's principles, and our freedoms.


Either I have been unclear in making my point, or you are setting up a straw man, here.  It is a given that the will of the majority does not run counter to the restraints of the Constitution.  I would not have suggested otherwise.  When the will of the majority is legally expressed, it is the moral duty of the minority to give it support during the tenure of that majority.  How would you have it otherwise?
  
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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #31 - 08/11/12 at 03:12:18
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Picker wrote on 08/10/12 at 11:18:49:
Either I have been unclear in making my point, or you are setting up a straw man, here.  It is a given that the will of the majority does not run counter to the restraints of the Constitution.  I would not have suggested otherwise.  When the will of the majority is legally expressed, it is the moral duty of the minority to give it support during the tenure of that majority.  How would you have it otherwise?



To my understanding, this discussion does not involve a consideration about the lawful expression of the will of the majority.

But rather the lawful exercise of the government, which is constituted so as to protect the rights and property of the individual, each of which is a minority.

This nation's founders seemed to recognize that "moral" is not a consideration in the will of the majority,  much less tying any "duty" to gratifying that will.


  

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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #32 - 08/11/12 at 09:35:16
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Trip wrote on 08/08/12 at 06:17:49:
A pertinent question is if it is even possible to have  a "collective" sovereignty for those citizens, and if that sovereignty can reasonably prevails over individual's sovereignty over themselves.  If there is such a collective soveregnty of the people of a state, then what specifically are they sovereign over?  If this were true then we would be a Democracy, something which the founders deliberately avoided, and most in this discussion seem to  recognize.


While I suggest the sovereign people of a state ( individually sovereign as you point out )  ratified the Constitution, they did so by meeting in convention ( a Congress, if you will ) of representatives of those sovereign people. I believe you might find the Founders believed in the sovereignty of the people of the individual states. Am I wrong?

  

Our Bill of Rights constitutes a cluster of little foxholes of liberty ground into the hard cold face of history by helpless men for a shield against the lash of tyrants. They are the result of distrust of power and distrust of men in power. They are a recognition of Lord Acton's statement of a truth eternal--"power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."R. CARTER PITTMAN&&Dalton, Ga., Sept. 28, 1955.DRAFT JAN MORGAN FOR PRESIDENT!
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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #33 - 08/13/12 at 10:29:21
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Shooterman wrote on 08/11/12 at 09:35:16:
While I suggest the sovereign people of a state ( individually sovereign as you point out )  ratified the Constitution, they did so by meeting in convention ( a Congress, if you will ) of representatives of those sovereign people. I believe you might find the Founders believed in the sovereignty of the people of the individual states. Am I wrong?




I think to examine that we have to consider what sovereignty entailes and where it resides.

A king is sovereign over his subjects, and can compel them to do his will. The English Bill of Rights of 1689 was quite different than ours, because it was intended to be used by the Pariliament against the King. These were rights of the subjects collectively, but the sovereignty itself still resided with the Crown.

However both our rights and sovereignty are deemed to reside individually, not collectively.

If the people of a state have a sovereignty, or sovereign authority if you will, then what are they sovereign over?

Are the people of the state sovereign over the individual's sovereignty of themselves,  and able to subvert that individual sovereignty?  If so, then the idea of the collective sovereignty of the state originating from a grant of the individual citizen's sovereignty is nullified,  with individuals having no real sovereignty whatsoever.  By this we would then immediately  transform into nothing but a Democratic tyranny of the majority the moment the majority expresses their sovereign will,  something our founders sought to preclude.

If the individual sovereignty does not consistently stand against  the will of the majority in a state, then there is not only no individual sovereignty, but no really "unalienable"  rights at all.
  

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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #34 - 08/13/12 at 14:03:27
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Trip wrote on 08/13/12 at 10:29:21:
I think to examine that we have to consider what sovereignty entailes and where it resides.

A king is sovereign over his subjects, and can compel them to do his will. The English Bill of Rights of 1689 was quite different than ours, because it was intended to be used by the Pariliament against the King. These were rights of the subjects collectively, but the sovereignty itself still resided with the Crown.

However both our rights and sovereignty are deemed to reside individually, not collectively.

If the people of a state have a sovereignty, or sovereign authority if you will, then what are they sovereign over?

Are the people of the state sovereign over the individual's sovereignty of themselves,  and able to subvert that individual sovereignty?  If so, then the idea of the collective sovereignty of the state originating from a grant of the individual citizen's sovereignty is nullified,  with individuals having no real sovereignty whatsoever.  By this we would then immediately  transform into nothing but a Democratic tyranny of the majority the moment the majority expresses their sovereign will,  something our founders sought to preclude.

If the individual sovereignty does not consistently stand against  the will of the majority in a state, then there is not only no individual sovereignty, but no really "unalienable"  rights at all.


As like the states give a portion of their sovereignty to the federal government, so do the individual sovereigns with in a state do to their state government. They do so through local representation within the state legislatures. The rub comes if an individual tries to take back that individual portion of his/her sovereignty and go it alone. Living in a vacuum, or as a hermit, he/she may pull it off.

A state may recall its sovereignty to the federal government. ( truthfully did not work very well with the arch criminal Lincoln in power ) I suggest it would be a mite harder for an individual to do the same. I might farther suggest an individuals sovereignty stops at the end of the nose of someone else.
  

Our Bill of Rights constitutes a cluster of little foxholes of liberty ground into the hard cold face of history by helpless men for a shield against the lash of tyrants. They are the result of distrust of power and distrust of men in power. They are a recognition of Lord Acton's statement of a truth eternal--"power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."R. CARTER PITTMAN&&Dalton, Ga., Sept. 28, 1955.DRAFT JAN MORGAN FOR PRESIDENT!
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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #35 - 08/13/12 at 20:54:34
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Shooterman wrote on 08/13/12 at 14:03:27:
As like the states give a portion of their sovereignty to the federal government, so do the individual sovereigns with in a state do to their state government. They do so through local representation within the state legislatures. The rub comes if an individual tries to take back that individual portion of his/her sovereignty and go it alone. Living in a vacuum, or as a hermit, he/she may pull it off.

A state may recall its sovereignty to the federal government. ( truthfully did not work very well with the arch criminal Lincoln in power ) I suggest it would be a mite harder for an individual to do the same. I might farther suggest an individuals sovereignty stops at the end of the nose of someone else.



Lincoln is an appropriate example, (and I agree with you in your perspective on state sovereignty).

THe states don't cede  a portion of their sovereignty to the federal government so that those states may be overwhelmed  and subverted, any more so than individuals cede their sovereignty to the states so that their individual unalienable rights might be subverted and denied.  

The individual cedes their rights  to the states so that the states might enact things that protect that individual sovereignty, just as th3e states cede what sovereignty they might have so that the federal government might protect the states interests.

Once the state or federal governments no longer protect that unalienable individual sovereignty, then they no longer are acting in a good faith legitimate manner.

The Declaration  simply indicates the sole purpose of government, be it state or federal:
    That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

    That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.


"These rights" referenced by the Declaration, are individual rights. We do not recognize collective rights unless we are Marxist social engineers, and that view is not compatible with the principles of this country.

And the "form of government" applies to both states and federal government.  States don't have some mystical authority if the actions of those states no longer represent their duty to protect individual rights.

This is why RomneyCare cannot reasonably be given legitimacy by the 10th Amendment, which in no way allows the states to supersede individual rights.
  

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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #36 - 08/13/12 at 23:00:34
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When a group of citizens agrees to cede or lend their sovereignty (authority) to a higher authority, on a temporary basis, they are to some degree binding themselves to accede to that higher authority, as long as that authority operates within the constraints of the agreement.  That is legal and therefore a moral responsibility,  adventuresome parsing notwithstanding.
  
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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #37 - 08/14/12 at 10:41:59
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Picker wrote on 08/13/12 at 23:00:34:
When a group of citizens agrees to cede or lend their sovereignty (authority) to a higher authority, on a temporary basis, they are to some degree binding themselves to accede to that higher authority, as long as that authority operates within the constraints of the agreement.  That is legal and therefore a moral responsibility,  adventuresome parsing notwithstanding.


The federal government, as the creation of the states ( people of the states meeting in convention ) can never be a higher authority than the creators. The ratifying states, of necessity, and by definition, will be the higher authority.
  

Our Bill of Rights constitutes a cluster of little foxholes of liberty ground into the hard cold face of history by helpless men for a shield against the lash of tyrants. They are the result of distrust of power and distrust of men in power. They are a recognition of Lord Acton's statement of a truth eternal--"power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."R. CARTER PITTMAN&&Dalton, Ga., Sept. 28, 1955.DRAFT JAN MORGAN FOR PRESIDENT!
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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #38 - 08/14/12 at 15:23:01
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Shooterman wrote on 08/14/12 at 10:41:59:
The federal government, as the creation of the states ( people of the states meeting in convention ) can never be a higher authority than the creators. The ratifying states, of necessity, and by definition, will be the higher authority.


My personal  authority, as a citizen, allows me to earn money, and to keep it if I wish.  Through the democratic plus republican processes, I (or my forefathers, or someone) surrendered part of that authority to the government, as an assessment of taxes.  I can still voice my strenuous objections to that, but until I can get enough other citizens to agree with me, I have a legal requirement to obey that requirement and pony up.
If sovereignty equates with authority, I have willingly given my authority to keep that part of my earnings, in exchange for a bridge, a mile of highway or a part of a battle ship.
The sovereignty to rescind that loan of authority still resides with me through my exercise of the democratic process.
  
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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #39 - 08/15/12 at 05:33:06
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Picker wrote on 08/14/12 at 15:23:01:
If sovereignty equates with authority, I have willingly given my authority to keep that part of my earnings, in exchange for a bridge, a mile of highway or a part of a battle ship.

The sovereignty to rescind that loan of authority still resides with me through my exercise of the democratic process.



If your sovereignty equates with your authority, then at what point have they exceeded their authority to tax you?  Can they tax you for anything they want, as some in the government seem to believe?

Yeah, good luck with the democratic process having anything to do with your sovereign authority. Some even claim that that the ability to vote is proof that we cannot subject to tyranny... That's a hoot too. 



"There is no subjugation so perfect as that which keeps the appearance of freedom for in that way one captures volition itself."
~ Rousseau
  

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