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Poll Question: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
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The Federal Government    
  1 (7.1%)
The people of The US Collectively    
  2 (14.3%)
The States Which Created The Union    
  4 (28.6%)
The People of The States    
  5 (35.7%)
The Constitution    
  2 (14.3%)




Total votes: 14
« Created by: Shooterman on: 05/23/12 at 10:39:50 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US? (Read 15,239 times)
Picker
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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #40 - 08/15/12 at 07:29:48
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Trip wrote on 08/15/12 at 05:33:06:
If your sovereignty equates with your authority, then at what point have they exceeded their authority to tax you?  Can they tax you for anything they want, as some in the government seem to believe?

Yeah, good luck with the democratic process having anything to do with your sovereign authority. Some even claim that that the ability to vote is proof that we cannot subject to tyranny... That's a hoot too.  



"There is no subjugation so perfect as that which keeps the appearance of freedom for in that way one captures volition itself."
~ Rousseau


They can try to tax at any level, but if they exceed the level which the voters find to be acceptable, the voters can remove from office any congressmen who approved legislation allowing such a tax level.

My argument is that the sovereignty rests finally with the individual.  If, however, no individual ever agreed to share that sovereignty with others, in agreement over how best to organize and regulate our affairs in order that the Constitution be followed for everyone, there would be no government at all.

If you believe that individual sovereignty cannot be pooled, combined or shared, by agreement, then maybe you would tell us how government could possibly work.  We have a government of the people, by the people and for the people, not of, by nor for the individual.  The "people" is collective.
  
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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #41 - 08/15/12 at 10:47:58
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Picker wrote on 08/15/12 at 07:29:48:
They can try to tax at any level, but if they exceed the level which the voters find to be acceptable, the voters can remove from office any congressmen who approved legislation allowing such a tax level.

My argument is that the sovereignty rests finally with the individual.  If, however, no individual ever agreed to share that sovereignty with others, in agreement over how best to organize and regulate our affairs in order that the Constitution be followed for everyone, there would be no government at all.

If you believe that individual sovereignty cannot be pooled, combined or shared, by agreement, then maybe you would tell us how government could possibly work.  We have a government of the people, by the people and for the people, not of, by nor for the individual.  The "people" is collective.



So it's just tax "level", or tax rate that is the concern,  and  no limit on what can be taxed?  If they tax everything at a low enough rate, we are obligated to accept that?


Sovereignty can be shared with others? How is that done?  If King George was being represented by some Lord, don't you think that the Lord would know that he was not given King George's sovereignty and he actually is only acting in his name? And if that Lord were to do anything inappropriate,  dont you think George would be well within his rights to prosecute that Lord for actions against King and Country?

Dont we have a government because we've given that government the terms that it might exist under, and the legitimate applications of its authority, including taxation authority, and by any reach beyond these the government then becomes illegitimate?

Government "possibly works" because there are things that all people benefit from that none can do on their own. Some felt this included a postal service, and an Army,  and a navy,  and the ability to keep peace in between the states by making sure no state is unfairly treated by the others, being denied access to trade products.

However there is no legitimacy by the federal government in taxing the interstate trade,  nor to apply statutes to it, because it is from that trade that commerce springs.   Taxing and regulating the commerce only serve to decrease that commerce, burden industry, and overall reduce the revenue.  There is certainly no authority to take from individuals their property in the name of an interstate commerce that is not occurring.

... and once government realizes the power and control of taxation (as if it hasn't) , that it can bend industry to its will, and that those industries give "donations" to their benefactors, might not Congress simply prejudicially tax some, and not others, choosing winners and losers? Isn't it futile and even foolish for then to declare government has a limit, but taxation does not?

Nowhere among congress's legitimate authority is there the ability to tax for something it is not entitled to do, and do so with the intent of distributing that wealth to others in an endeavor it is still  not entitled to do. 



  

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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #42 - 08/15/12 at 15:01:33
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Trip wrote on 08/15/12 at 10:47:58:
Dont we have a government because we've given that government the terms that it might exist under, and the legitimate applications of its authority, including taxation authority, and by any reach beyond these the government then becomes illegitimate?





... and once government realizes the power and control of taxation (as if it hasn't) , that it can bend industry to its will, and that those industries give "donations" to their benefactors, might not Congress simply prejudicially tax some, and not others, choosing winners and losers? Isn't it futile and even foolish for then to declare government has a limit, but taxation does not?

Nowhere among congress's legitimate authority is there the ability to tax for something it is not entitled to do, and do so with the intent of distributing that wealth to others in an endeavor it is still  not entitled to do.  





It seems that you have answered your own question, and that it agrees with me, except for the choice of words.  "We have given" is a little stronger that my, "we lend to them".  A sovereign citizen, "giving power to the government", in order that the government can act on the citizen's behalf, is the same as your example of a king giving power to a lord.  A temporary and conditional bestowing of specific authority.

The remainder of your expressed dissatisfaction with the Congress, the Supreme Court, the President and anyone else who represents government invites your opinions as to how they can be improved.
  
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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #43 - 08/15/12 at 18:28:53
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Picker wrote on 08/15/12 at 15:01:33:
It seems that you have answered your own question, and that it agrees with me, except for the choice of words.  "We have given" is a little stronger that my, "we lend to them".  A sovereign citizen, "giving power to the government", in order that the government can act on the citizen's behalf, is the same as your example of a king giving power to a lord.  A temporary and conditional bestowing of specific authority.



We did not "lend them" the power to tax every aspect of our lives, to fuel their profligate spending and self-empowerments.  

They have usurped our sovereignty,  by illegitimate means, applied it to illegitimate process, and then threaten us with our own sovereignty and stolen monies, when we indicate their conduct is no longer within the terms of the compact.

Either we speak up now and indicate that they are beyond their leigitimate boundaries, or in fact "we have given UP" our freedoms and our sovereignty.

Picker wrote on 08/15/12 at 15:01:33:
The remainder of your expressed dissatisfaction with the Congress, the Supreme Court, the President and anyone else who represents government invites your opinions as to how they can be improved.


The current oval occupant is not legitimately President by the terms U.S. Constitution, and known facts (but this is for some other discussion).

Overlooking that fact, this isn't about "dissatisfaction";  its not about "likes or dislikes", nor is about "opinion", and preference.  Your question presumes government, and in this specific instance, the Supreme Court, is acting legitimately, and it is this presumed legitimacy in the face of their blatantly illegitimate actions, that leads to even more corrupt government.  Many Americas are relying on the presumption of normalcy to keep them safe.  However the presumptive legitimacy of the "Master" government can only result in the further enslavement of us all, and that is what they are aggressively trying to accomplish before our very eyes.  

And if you don't on your own recognize that "they can be improved" by adhering to the Constitution and its limits, then I don't know what to tell you. While some believe we're now witnessing what can still be characterized as legitimate government,  others are on a far distant shore,  seeing conditions quite differently,   and the two  shores cannot ever hope to  recognize one another.

Perhaps we'd do better narrowing the discussion to how you  believe Roberts might be legitimate in saying it is not the job of the Supreme Court to protect people from their political choices.  Many are quite concerned how the Court is suddenly getting out of the business of the Constitution just at the moment that the federal government is claiming ownership over our bodies and lives. No cause for concern here?.





« Last Edit: 08/15/12 at 20:15:15 by Trip »  

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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #44 - 08/15/12 at 22:39:06
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Trip wrote on 08/15/12 at 18:28:53:
We did not "lend them" the power to tax every aspect of our lives, to fuel their profligate spending and self-empowerments.  

They have usurped our sovereignty,  by illegitimate means, applied it to illegitimate process, and then threaten us with our own sovereignty and stolen monies, when we indicate their conduct is no longer within the terms of the compact.

Either we speak up now and indicate that they are beyond their leigitimate boundaries, or in fact "we have given UP" our freedoms and our sovereignty.


The current oval occupant is not legitimately President by the terms U.S. Constitution, and known facts (but this is for some other discussion).

Overlooking that fact, this isn't about "dissatisfaction";  its not about "likes or dislikes", nor is about "opinion", and preference.  Your question presumes government, and in this specific instance, the Supreme Court, is acting legitimately, and it is this presumed legitimacy in the face of their blatantly illegitimate actions, that leads to even more corrupt government.  Many Americas are relying on the presumption of normalcy to keep them safe.  However the presumptive legitimacy of the "Master" government can only result in the further enslavement of us all, and that is what they are aggressively trying to accomplish before our very eyes.  

And if you don't on your own recognize that "they can be improved" by adhering to the Constitution and its limits, then I don't know what to tell you. While some believe we're now witnessing what can still be characterized as legitimate government,  others are on a far distant shore,  seeing conditions quite differently,   and the two  shores cannot ever hope to  recognize one another.

Perhaps we'd do better narrowing the discussion to how you  believe Roberts might be legitimate in saying it is not the job of the Supreme Court to protect people from their political choices.  Many are quite concerned how the Court is suddenly getting out of the business of the Constitution just at the moment that the federal government is claiming ownership over our bodies and lives. No cause for concern here?.







We are in agreement on the need for improvement.  Perhaps you should start a thread on your ideas on just how to accomplish that.
  
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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #45 - 08/16/12 at 15:10:59
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Picker wrote on 08/15/12 at 22:39:06:
We are in agreement on the need for improvement.  Perhaps you should start a thread on your ideas on just how to accomplish that.



I think we may still be talking past one another.   When I use the words ""need improvement", it was gross understatement, with the implication being that, as it is, it is not anything close to being acceptable.


  

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Re: Where Does Sovereignty Lie Within The US?
Reply #46 - 12/02/12 at 12:35:13
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Sovereignty begins with the individual, each and every one of us.
  
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