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Shooterman
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George Mason Speech
12/12/15 at 16:33:59
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Given at the Virginia Ratifying Convention June 4, 1788

Mr. Chairman—Whether the Constitution be good or bad, the present clause clearly discovers, that it is a National Government, and no longer a confederation. I mean that clause which gives the first hint of the General Government laying direct taxes. The assumption of this power of laying direct taxes, does of itself, entirely change the confederation of the States into one consolidated Government. This power being at discretion, unconfined, and without any kind of controul, must carry every thing before it. The very idea of converting what was formerly confederation, to a consolidated Government, is totally subversive of every principle which has hitherto governed us. This power is calculated to annihilate totally the State Governments. Will the people of this great community submit to be individually taxed by two different and distinct powers? Will they suffer themselves to be doubly harrassed? These two concurrent powers cannot exist long together; the one will destroy the other: The General Government being paramount to, and in every respect more powerful than, the State governments, the latter must give way to the former. Is it to be supposed that one National Government will suit so extensive a country, embracing so many climates, and containing inhabitants so very different in manners, habits, and customs? It is ascertained by history, that there never was a Government, over a very extensive country, without destroying the liberties of the people: History also, supported by the opinions of the best writers, shew us, that monarchy may suit a large territory, and despotic Governments ever so extensive t a country; but that popular Governments can only exist in small territories —Is there a single example, on the face of the earth, to support t a contrary opinion? Where is there one exception to this general rule? Was there ever an instance of a general National Government extending over so extensive a country, abounding in such a variety of climates, where the people retained their liberty? I solemnly declare that no man is a greater friend to a firm Union of the American States than I am: But, Sir, if this great end can be obtained without hazarding the rights of the people, why should we recur to such dangerous principles? Requisitions have been often refused, sometimes from an impossibility of complying with them; often from that great variety of circumstances which retard the collection of monies, and, perhaps, sometimes from a wilful design of procrastinating. But why shall we give up to the National Government this power, so dangerous in its nature, and for which its members will not have sufficient information

The Dangers of a consolidated government
  

Our Bill of Rights constitutes a cluster of little foxholes of liberty ground into the hard cold face of history by helpless men for a shield against the lash of tyrants. They are the result of distrust of power and distrust of men in power. They are a recognition of Lord Acton's statement of a truth eternal--"power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."R. CARTER PITTMAN&&Dalton, Ga., Sept. 28, 1955.DRAFT JAN MORGAN FOR PRESIDENT!
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FellowPatriot
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Re: George Mason Speech
Reply #1 - 12/13/15 at 08:24:35
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Thanks for posting this shooter, for I can understand Mason's sediments. It was going into the unknown at the same time going into the known, like Mason's opinions.

Notice he was acknowledging(at least how I see it) basically states yielding to a national Gov.

Quote:
the present clause clearly discovers, that it is a National Government, and no longer a confederation.



Quote:
I mean that clause which gives the first hint of the General Government laying direct taxes.


What 'Direct taxes' do you suppose he is talking about?


I understand his examples/worriedness of past Gov in history turning into despotism . He is right, that is what we have become(my opinion)


Even so, we still manage to become the greatest county on earth. Hands down.

I may sound repetitive, but the whole thing was depended on our citizenry. This is where we erred. My opinion of course.  
  

* All Throughout our American history... " Ordinary people can do extraordinary things"
*"You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality"- Ayn Rand
*"In the beginning of a change the PATRIOT is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it cost nothing to be a patriot"- Mark Twain
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Shooterman
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Re: George Mason Speech
Reply #2 - 12/13/15 at 09:19:43
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FellowPatriot wrote on 12/13/15 at 08:24:35:
Thanks for posting this shooter, for I can understand Mason's sediments. It was going into the unknown at the same time going into the known, like Mason's opinions.

Notice he was acknowledging(at least how I see it) basically states yielding to a national Gov.




What 'Direct taxes' do you suppose he is talking about?


I understand his examples/worriedness of past Gov in history turning into despotism . He is right, that is what we have become(my opinion)


Even so, we still manage to become the greatest county on earth. Hands down.

I may sound repetitive, but the whole thing was depended on our citizenry. This is where we erred. My opinion of course.  


Understand, FP, that Mason, considered by many of his peers as the most knowledgeable of the constitutions and history of the world, ( he suffered from gout and read extensively from his great library ) was an anti-Federalist, along with Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson to a lessor extent, and a few more. Even though he owned slaves, he truly was aghast the Convention did not within the Constitution, ban slavery, and because of that and no Bill of Rights, refused to sign off on the document. This piqued the personage of George Washington, whom ended his life long friendship with Mason and conspired to keep him out of the ratifying conventions from his county, but who was appointed by others from other counties.

The writings of George Mason also influenced immensely and immediately the thinking and writing of Thomas Jefferson as he penned the document we lovingly call the Declaration of Independence. ( not only Mason but Judge Henry Drayton of South Carolina, as well )

The anti-Federalist, almost to a man, could see what the future would hold in store for the country. These were truly the giants of the Founders.
  

Our Bill of Rights constitutes a cluster of little foxholes of liberty ground into the hard cold face of history by helpless men for a shield against the lash of tyrants. They are the result of distrust of power and distrust of men in power. They are a recognition of Lord Acton's statement of a truth eternal--"power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."R. CARTER PITTMAN&&Dalton, Ga., Sept. 28, 1955.DRAFT JAN MORGAN FOR PRESIDENT!
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FellowPatriot
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Re: George Mason Speech
Reply #3 - 12/13/15 at 09:27:51
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Shooterman wrote on 12/13/15 at 09:19:43:
Understand, FP, that Mason, considered by many of his peers as the most knowledgeable of the constitutions and history of the world, ( he suffered from gout and read extensively from his great library ) was an anti-Federalist, along with Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson to a lessor extent, and a few more. Even though he owned slaves, he truly was aghast the Convention did not within the Constitution, ban slavery, and because of that and no Bill of Rights, refused to sign off on the document. This piqued the personage of George Washington, whom ended his life long friendship with Mason and conspired to keep him out of the ratifying conventions from his county, but who was appointed by others from other counties.

The writings of George Mason also influenced immensely and immediately the thinking and writing of Thomas Jefferson as he penned the document we lovingly call the Declaration of Independence. ( not only Mason but Judge Henry Drayton of South Carolina, as well )

The anti-Federalist, almost to a man, could see what the future would hold in store for the country. These were truly the giants of the Founders.



Quote:
George Washington, whom ended his life long friendship with Mason



Well, as for this,  what I know of it is, that Washington got an early glimpse of all the independent states during the American revolution.

They abandoned him and his army at certain times during the American revolution because there wasn't enough uniformity. Squabbling states is what they were.  

Hence the need for a centralized Gov.
  

* All Throughout our American history... " Ordinary people can do extraordinary things"
*"You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality"- Ayn Rand
*"In the beginning of a change the PATRIOT is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it cost nothing to be a patriot"- Mark Twain
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Shooterman
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Re: George Mason Speech
Reply #4 - 12/13/15 at 09:58:52
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FellowPatriot wrote on 12/13/15 at 09:27:51:
Well, as for this,  what I know of it is, that Washington got an early glimpse of all the independent states during the American revolution.

They abandoned him and his army at certain times during the American revolution because there wasn't enough uniformity. Squabbling states is what they were.  

Hence the need for a centralized Gov.


Please note, FP, those giants included defense of the country  as one of the 19 or so authorizations of the new government. Mason, nor Henry, nor any of the others refuted that. They, however did not include an all powerful union that precluded the states from recalling their appointed sovereignty.
  

Our Bill of Rights constitutes a cluster of little foxholes of liberty ground into the hard cold face of history by helpless men for a shield against the lash of tyrants. They are the result of distrust of power and distrust of men in power. They are a recognition of Lord Acton's statement of a truth eternal--"power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."R. CARTER PITTMAN&&Dalton, Ga., Sept. 28, 1955.DRAFT JAN MORGAN FOR PRESIDENT!
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Re: George Mason Speech
Reply #5 - 12/14/15 at 05:42:32
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Shooterman wrote on 12/13/15 at 09:58:52:
Please note, FP, those giants included defense of the country  as one of the 19 or so authorizations of the new government. Mason, nor Henry, nor any of the others refuted that. They, however did not include an all powerful union that precluded the states from recalling their appointed sovereignty.


Quote:
Please note, FP, those giants included defense of the country  as one of the 19 or so authorizations of the new government. Mason, nor Henry, nor any of the others refuted that.



Are you sure?  Doesn't Masons words/speech say it all?

Quote:
Mr. Chairman—Whether the Constitution be good or bad, the present clause clearly discovers, that it is a National Government, and no longer a confederation.


Wasn't this really all of Masons and Henry's grievances?

  

* All Throughout our American history... " Ordinary people can do extraordinary things"
*"You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality"- Ayn Rand
*"In the beginning of a change the PATRIOT is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it cost nothing to be a patriot"- Mark Twain
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Shooterman
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Re: George Mason Speech
Reply #6 - 12/14/15 at 08:08:33
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FellowPatriot wrote on 12/14/15 at 05:42:32:
Are you sure?  Doesn't Masons words/speech say it all?


Wasn't this really all of Masons and Henry's grievances?



No!  Mason, especially upon leaving the Constitutional Convention cried there is no Bill of Rights, nor had the issue of slavery been resolved. However, even if it had been, would it not have been enough to keep them from signing off on the document. How well has this national government worked?

620000 American soldiers slaughtered in battle.

An untold number maimed for life.

Hundreds of thousands of civilians murdered, raped, and robbed.

A regional culture damned near obliterated.

Trillions of dollars, hundreds of thousands killed and maimed in wars, and an untold amount of resources expended all in the name of whatever the war dejure was at the time. All uncalled for.

One of the most important; Just War relegated to the back burner.
  

Our Bill of Rights constitutes a cluster of little foxholes of liberty ground into the hard cold face of history by helpless men for a shield against the lash of tyrants. They are the result of distrust of power and distrust of men in power. They are a recognition of Lord Acton's statement of a truth eternal--"power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."R. CARTER PITTMAN&&Dalton, Ga., Sept. 28, 1955.DRAFT JAN MORGAN FOR PRESIDENT!
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FellowPatriot
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Re: George Mason Speech
Reply #7 - 12/15/15 at 07:04:27
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Shooterman wrote on 12/14/15 at 08:08:33:
No!  Mason, especially upon leaving the Constitutional Convention cried there is no Bill of Rights, nor had the issue of slavery been resolved. However, even if it had been, would it not have been enough to keep them from signing off on the document. How well has this national government worked?



620000 American soldiers slaughtered in battle.

An untold number maimed for life.

Hundreds of thousands of civilians murdered, raped, and robbed.

A regional culture damned near obliterated.

Trillions of dollars, hundreds of thousands killed and maimed in wars, and an untold amount of resources expended all in the name of whatever the war dejure was at the time. All uncalled for.

One of the most important; Just War relegated to the back burner.



Quote:
Mason, especially upon leaving the Constitutional Convention cried there is no Bill of Rights,


Which there was in 1791

Quote:
nor had the issue of slavery been resolved


Nor could it have been resolved at that time. But what was done was a notion that it had to be dealt with in the future. I think it was ten years later? They started to ban in 'Acts' the import of slaves. 1st step in abolishing slavery. Which of course was ignored in the south. No teeth.

Quote:
  How well has this national government worked?



Well enough to become the greatest country that is and ever will be. Even with all it faults. Now, I'm with you that Gov has gotten out of hand, too intrusive and our rights have been taking away from us. That's only because of our weak citizenry. Not enough of me and you's Shooter. Our Gov can only be as strong as our citizenry. Take a look around you?

Quote:
620000 American soldiers slaughtered in battle.


You know the south had a little bit of blame in that by choosing their own destiny. They're not at all innocent.

Quote:
Trillions of dollars, hundreds of thousands killed and maimed in wars, and an untold amount of resources expended all in the name of whatever the war dejure was at the time. All uncalled for
.

I agree with a lot of that.
  

* All Throughout our American history... " Ordinary people can do extraordinary things"
*"You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality"- Ayn Rand
*"In the beginning of a change the PATRIOT is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it cost nothing to be a patriot"- Mark Twain
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Shooterman
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Re: George Mason Speech
Reply #8 - 12/15/15 at 11:26:27
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FellowPatriot wrote on 12/15/15 at 07:04:27:
Which there was in 1791


Which, by no means did he envision, or anyone else envision.

Quote:
Nor could it have been resolved at that time. But what was done was a notion that it had to be dealt with in the future. I think it was ten years later? They started to ban in 'Acts' the import of slaves. 1st step in abolishing slavery. Which of course was ignored in the south. No teeth.


Not quite so. It could have been decided then by compromise as everything else was decided. It was okay for the Yankees to import for 20 years before the ban on importation took place. That had absolutely no bearing on the trade of Slaves, just importing them. In fact the Yankee shipbuilders and owners continued to import and trade slaves into the Caribbean countries and South American countries.  

Quote:
Well enough to become the greatest country that is and ever will be.


At what cost? With a little over two hundred years under our belt, it is somewhat foolish and grandiose of us to make that claim.

Quote:
Even with all it faults. Now, I'm with you that Gov has gotten out of hand, too intrusive and our rights have been taking away from us. That's only because of our weak citizenry. Not enough of me and you's Shooter. Our Gov can only be as strong as our citizenry. Take a look around you?


And that kind Sir, is exactly why your previous statement is lacking. We can not ever be a great or a near great country if government continues  to usurp power and the freedoms of the people, which ios the over riding concern of every country and nation that has ever existed.

Quote:
You know the south had a little bit of blame in that by choosing their own destiny. They're not at all innocent.


By choosing to exercise their right to govern their own selves? Isn't that exactly what our Revolution was all about?

Quote:
I agree with a lot of that.


Thanks, Mon Ami.

BTW, I specifically listed the thoughts of Patrick Henry in the next posting for you to read and make comment.

http://www.conservativesforum.com/cgi-bin/conservatives-forum/YaBB.pl?num=145002...
  

Our Bill of Rights constitutes a cluster of little foxholes of liberty ground into the hard cold face of history by helpless men for a shield against the lash of tyrants. They are the result of distrust of power and distrust of men in power. They are a recognition of Lord Acton's statement of a truth eternal--"power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."R. CARTER PITTMAN&&Dalton, Ga., Sept. 28, 1955.DRAFT JAN MORGAN FOR PRESIDENT!
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Re: George Mason Speech
Reply #9 - 12/19/15 at 15:57:53
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Shooterman wrote on 12/15/15 at 11:26:27:
Which, by no means did he envision, or anyone else envision.


Not quite so. It could have been decided then by compromise as everything else was decided. It was okay for the Yankees to import for 20 years before the ban on importation took place. That had absolutely no bearing on the trade of Slaves, just importing them. In fact the Yankee shipbuilders and owners continued to import and trade slaves into the Caribbean countries and South American countries.  


At what cost? With a little over two hundred years under our belt, it is somewhat foolish and grandiose of us to make that claim.


And that kind Sir, is exactly why your previous statement is lacking. We can not ever be a great or a near great country if government continues  to usurp power and the freedoms of the people, which ios the over riding concern of every country and nation that has ever existed.


By choosing to exercise their right to govern their own selves? Isn't that exactly what our Revolution was all about?


Thanks, Mon Ami.

BTW, I specifically listed the thoughts of Patrick Henry in the next posting for you to read and make comment.

http://www.conservativesforum.com/cgi-bin/conservatives-forum/YaBB.pl?num=145002...



Quote:
Which, by no means did he envision, or anyone else envision.


Why do you say that?

James Madison submitted the Bill of Rights in 1789

Bill Of Rights day,  Dec 15, 1791

George Mason died Oct 7 1792 .
Quote:
It could have been decided then by compromise as everything else was decided.


Yes, but wasn't. So it could not.

Quote:
It was okay for the Yankees to import for 20 years before the ban on importation took place.



So, before the band. And some Yankee slave importers speak for the rest of the northern populace? Me thinks not.


Quote:
And that kind Sir, is exactly why your previous statement is lacking. We can not ever be a great or a near great country if government continues  to usurp power and the freedoms of the people, which ios the over riding concern of every country and nation that has ever existed.


Cant disagree with a lot of that.

Quote:
By choosing to exercise their right to govern their own selves? Isn't that exactly what our Revolution was all about?


That has been and will be debated till eternity.
  

* All Throughout our American history... " Ordinary people can do extraordinary things"
*"You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality"- Ayn Rand
*"In the beginning of a change the PATRIOT is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it cost nothing to be a patriot"- Mark Twain
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