Conservative's ForumConservative's Discussion ForumsConstitutional Issues › Consolidated versus Federated Government
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 Send TopicPrint
Normal Topic Consolidated versus Federated Government (Read 936 times)
Shooterman
CF Presidents Club
*****
Offline

Dum spiro pugno

Posts: 9,973
Joined: 03/01/11
Gender: Male
Consolidated versus Federated Government
12/13/15 at 10:57:07
Print Post  
Musings from Patrick Henry at the Virginia Ratifying Convention beginning on June 4, 1788.

And here I would make this enquiry of those worthy characters who composed a part of the late Federal Convention. I am sure they were fully impressed with the necessity of forming a great consolidated Government, instead of a confederation. That this is a consolidated Government is demonstrably clear, and the danger of such a Government, is, to my mind, very striking. I have the highest veneration of those Gentlemen,--but, Sir, give me leave to demand, what right had they to say, We, the People. My political curiosity, exclusive of my anxious solicitude for the public welfare, leads me to ask who authorised them to speak the language of, We, the People, instead of We, the States? States are the characteristics, and the soul of a confederation. If the States be not the agents of this compact, it must be one great consolidated National Government of the people of all the States.

WE THE PEOPLE OR WE THE STATES?

As conceived, the Constitution was a compact between the states in which they LENT a portion of their sovereignty to the union, with the full recognition, the union could possibly become too involved in the lives of the states and they, in turn, would at that point, rescind their authorizations

As Henry demanded, who changed the Compact from a creation of the states to that of a creation of the people collectively?
  

Our Bill of Rights constitutes a cluster of little foxholes of liberty ground into the hard cold face of history by helpless men for a shield against the lash of tyrants. They are the result of distrust of power and distrust of men in power. They are a recognition of Lord Acton's statement of a truth eternal--"power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."R. CARTER PITTMAN&&Dalton, Ga., Sept. 28, 1955.DRAFT JAN MORGAN FOR PRESIDENT!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FellowPatriot
CF Presidents Club
*****
Offline

Another California Refugee-
Self Educated

Posts: 8,821
Location: Idaho
Joined: 02/09/13
Gender: Male
Re: Consolidated versus Federated Government
Reply #1 - 12/20/15 at 06:03:28
Print Post  
Shooterman wrote on 12/13/15 at 10:57:07:
Musings from Patrick Henry at the Virginia Ratifying Convention beginning on June 4, 1788.

And here I would make this enquiry of those worthy characters who composed a part of the late Federal Convention. I am sure they were fully impressed with the necessity of forming a great consolidated Government, instead of a confederation. That this is a consolidated Government is demonstrably clear, and the danger of such a Government, is, to my mind, very striking. I have the highest veneration of those Gentlemen,--but, Sir, give me leave to demand, what right had they to say, We, the People. My political curiosity, exclusive of my anxious solicitude for the public welfare, leads me to ask who authorised them to speak the language of, We, the People, instead of We, the States? States are the characteristics, and the soul of a confederation. If the States be not the agents of this compact, it must be one great consolidated National Government of the people of all the States.

WE THE PEOPLE OR WE THE STATES?

As conceived, the Constitution was a compact between the states in which they LENT a portion of their sovereignty to the union, with the full recognition, the union could possibly become too involved in the lives of the states and they, in turn, would at that point, rescind their authorizations

As Henry demanded, who changed the Compact from a creation of the states to that of a creation of the people collectively?




Quote:
As conceived, the Constitution was a compact between the states in which they LENT a portion of their sovereignty to the union, with the full recognition, the union could possibly become too involved in the lives of the states and they, in turn, would at that point, rescind their authorizations


It does NOT say that at all in what became the law of the land. The constitution.


The fact is shooter the majority got on board.  There was a reason for that, the Articles of confederation were a failure. I didn't last long at all. It could not be improved on.

To me, the biggest 'Hard on' for the Anti-federalist was that it did not contain a Bill Of Rights. Which they got eventually.


Shooter, all of them knew that the constitution and our Republic was only as good as it's citizenry. So in other words, what has happened to us is no surprise. It was up to us shooter. The people failed.

The Fed gov wasn't suppose to be this Big. Who's to blame? The people are shooter!  The people!

Not the Federalist!
  

* All Throughout our American history... " Ordinary people can do extraordinary things"
*"You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality"- Ayn Rand
*"In the beginning of a change the PATRIOT is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it cost nothing to be a patriot"- Mark Twain
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Shooterman
CF Presidents Club
*****
Offline

Dum spiro pugno

Posts: 9,973
Joined: 03/01/11
Gender: Male
Re: Consolidated versus Federated Government
Reply #2 - 12/22/15 at 10:04:59
Print Post  
FellowPatriot wrote on 12/20/15 at 06:03:28:
It does NOT say that at all in what became the law of the land. The constitution.


The fact is shooter the majority got on board.  There was a reason for that, the Articles of confederation were a failure. I didn't last long at all. It could not be improved on.

To me, the biggest 'Hard on' for the Anti-federalist was that it did not contain a Bill Of Rights. Which they got eventually.


Shooter, all of them knew that the constitution and our Republic was only as good as it's citizenry. So in other words, what has happened to us is no surprise. It was up to us shooter. The people failed.

The Fed gov wasn't suppose to be this Big. Who's to blame? The people are shooter!  The people!

Not the Federalist!


The door was left open for the circumstances to lead to exactly what we have now.

A few questions, FP, which you kind of dance around.

When the colonies revolted, did they do so as sovereign entities? When the Crown signed the Treaty of Trent, did it do so with the collective people of the colonies, or with the sovereign, free, and independent states? When the Articles of Confederation created the government, was it the collective people that created the Confederation? When the Union was form by the new Constitution, did the collective people create it or did the free, independent, and sovereign states do so?

WHAT EXACTLY IS THE UNION, BUT A GOVERNMENT CREATED BY A COMPACT BETWEEN THE STATES?

I know you know the answer, now to worm it out of you?
  

Our Bill of Rights constitutes a cluster of little foxholes of liberty ground into the hard cold face of history by helpless men for a shield against the lash of tyrants. They are the result of distrust of power and distrust of men in power. They are a recognition of Lord Acton's statement of a truth eternal--"power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."R. CARTER PITTMAN&&Dalton, Ga., Sept. 28, 1955.DRAFT JAN MORGAN FOR PRESIDENT!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FellowPatriot
CF Presidents Club
*****
Offline

Another California Refugee-
Self Educated

Posts: 8,821
Location: Idaho
Joined: 02/09/13
Gender: Male
Re: Consolidated versus Federated Government
Reply #3 - 01/01/16 at 09:20:17
Print Post  
You know Shooter, in all the time I have known you, you always seem too play it safe.

You support the constitution then, you show a few Founding fathers that did not.

Even the Founders who did support it(majority) Shooter knew it all came down to our citizenry whether it was to last. They knew it then as I know it now. It's no secret.

One thing you can not refute, There has never, ever been a country as successful as ours . And there never will be.
  

* All Throughout our American history... " Ordinary people can do extraordinary things"
*"You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality"- Ayn Rand
*"In the beginning of a change the PATRIOT is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it cost nothing to be a patriot"- Mark Twain
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Shooterman
CF Presidents Club
*****
Offline

Dum spiro pugno

Posts: 9,973
Joined: 03/01/11
Gender: Male
Re: Consolidated versus Federated Government
Reply #4 - 01/01/16 at 15:57:56
Print Post  
FellowPatriot wrote on 01/01/16 at 09:20:17:
You know Shooter, in all the time I have known you, you always seem too play it safe.


Grin Grin Grin Okay, FP. If that is your opinion, then stick with it. Thumbs Upsup

Quote:
You support the constitution then, you show a few Founding fathers that did not.


I believe those Founders were more astute, especially Mason who was somewhat of an expert on every constitution in the country at the time.

If you recall, there were the Federalists on one side, fairly well led by Hamilton, John Adams, and such, that were pushing hard for ratification of the Constitution. Hamilton was a Monarchist, wanted a President elected for life, and wished for that President to appoint the Senators from every state. Some of the states in their ratification conventions damned near did not pass on the Constitution.

Even the Founders who did support it(majority) Shooter knew it all came down to our citizenry whether it was to last. They knew it then as I know it now. It's no secret.

Quote:
One thing you can not refute, There has never, ever been a country as successful as ours . And there never will be.


Which has what to do with the discussion? Possibly a straw argument?
  

Our Bill of Rights constitutes a cluster of little foxholes of liberty ground into the hard cold face of history by helpless men for a shield against the lash of tyrants. They are the result of distrust of power and distrust of men in power. They are a recognition of Lord Acton's statement of a truth eternal--"power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."R. CARTER PITTMAN&&Dalton, Ga., Sept. 28, 1955.DRAFT JAN MORGAN FOR PRESIDENT!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send TopicPrint
 
Conservative's ForumConservative's Discussion ForumsConstitutional Issues › Consolidated versus Federated Government


ConservativesForum.com
CF Forums
The NCO Club - Military Forum - Constitutional Issues - Political Polls - Candidates Action - Economy
Conservative News Sources Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Mark Levin forums
Political Activism, Strategy, Blogs - Conservative Sites - Games - Sports - Health - Poetry - Cooking - Library
Gun Rights - Conspiracy Theories - Page 2 - Page 3 - Page 4 - Page 5


Conservatives Directory
Recent conservative sites added:
Breitbart News
Drudge Report
Sean Hannity Show
Rush Limbaugh
FrontPage Magazine
Rasmussen Reports
David Limbaugh
American Conservative Union
Accuracy in Media
News Busters
Right Bias
Newt Gingrich
Chicks on the Right
Mark Levin Show
Tea Party Patriots
Phyllis Schlafly Report
Conservative News
TruthUSA
Michelle Malkin
RightWingStuff.com
Right Wing News
Accuracy in Academia
The American Thinker
Hotair
Powerline Blog
Conservative News Source
Conservative Activist

Conservative Blogs
Proudvet's Blog
Opinion Editorials
Political Polls
Twitter CF
Conservatives Directory Add Your Site
Conservative Blog Advertising
Forum Rules, User Agreement and Privacy Policy
Registering Information and Forum Rules